Learning

[David Barnert]

6 minutes ago, Sandra A said:

Are all "real" concertinas set up like in the first picture in a circle?

 

People might get touchy about the definition of “real” concertina. Let’s just say that the radial arrangement of reeds is quite common in traditionally constructed concertinas.

 

9 minutes ago, Sandra A said:

What are those things that look like band aids with the rounded corners in the first picture?

 

Those are the valves. They’re made of leather, attached at the outer end with hide glue. Unlike accordion reeds, concertina reeds are not mounted on a plate in pairs, they are individually removable reeds. You’re looking at one side of the wooden reed pan. On the other side are more reeds and valves (the reeds behind the valves you see in the picture and vice-versa).

[Sandra A]

I don't want to offend anyone by the "real" comment but it seems that they are and have been around for a long long time.  I was at another site reading about other types and makes and there are many of them but it seems that the Lachenal (don't know how to pronounce that one) and Wheatstone are the best out there.  They have tons of buttons too and probably sound beautiful if they are in good condition.  I have also learned Stagi might be good to learn on but might not  hold up very long before needing to be worked on.  Bear in mind, I know nothing about all of this and everyone has their own opinion and I am just studying the differences and listening to them on you tube.  There is a whole lot to learn about all of these and I am wondering if one learns on a 20 button would it be hard to eventually move up to one with more buttons or stay with the 20 button to learn and practice and get the feel for it.  How many people still play a 20 button once they get one with more buttons they can do more with?  

I see there is a huge difference in the insides too with the ones like I got that are set up like an accordion but to my untrained ears they sound good.

 

No matter which one I think all of them are fun to play.

[Sandra A]

I forgot about the Jeffries.  I'm not sure which one is supposed to be the cadillac of all of them but something to work toward.

[David Barnert]

1 hour ago, Sandra A said:

I forgot about the Jeffries.  I'm not sure which one is supposed to be the cadillac of all of them but something to work toward.

 

The three big ones historically are Wheatstone (Charles Wheatstone invented the concertina), Lachenal, and Jeffries. Of the three, only Wheatstone is currently in business (long story—it was briefly defunct and resurrected some 50 years ago).

[alex_holden]

5 hours ago, Sandra A said:

Thank you David for the pictures.  What a huge difference!  Are all "real" concertinas set up like in the first picture in a circle?  What are those things that look like band aids with the rounded corners in the first picture?

 

Some traditional reed pans have the chambers arranged in parallel rows:

 

While others have them arranged radially:

 

Basically the radial arrangement lets you fit slightly more chambers in the available space and the parallel arrangement is a bit simpler to manufacture, so you'll usually (but not always) find parallel pans in something like a 30 button Anglo and a radial arrangement in a 48 button English or a duet. Originally an English or a duet with lots of buttons would have been significantly more expensive than a 30 button Anglo of similar quality, but the second hand market is a bit weird because good 30 button C/G Anglos are very desirable for playing Irish Traditional Music. 20 button Anglos can still be quite cheap because they aren't very useful for playing ITM, but it can be hard to find a good one.

 

The leather flappy things are the valves for the reeds that are on the opposite side of the board.

[Sandra A]

Thank you Alan.  The bottom one with the radial pattern looks like a piece of artwork, kind of like a flower.  The slots on both of them for the reeds to fit into is really cool too.  

Whoever first designed these things years and years ago without all of the technology available today were really masters at their craft.  

 

[Sandra A]

22 hours ago, SIMON GABRIELOW said:

You can get a lot of teething problems on instruments

Thank you Simon.  You saying you had your 20 button for years makes me feel better and you mastered and enjoyed it before moving to one with more buttons.   I was wondering if a 30 would be better to be learning on but still think the 20 is the way for me to go right now since I was having so much fun with it until the button got stuck.  But I do need to know how to work on them for simple problems in the future and am still very excited about it.  I still have the first one to play but it is harder than the one with the stuck (was) buttons.  I ordered some tubing for them since what was there originally is gone and it should be here next week, then I have to find valves so I can fix those too and then hopefully I'll be back in business.  Just have to find where to purchase the valves.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Sandra A

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

30 buttons adds a row of "accidentals" as they are termed, sharps or flats to the existing C major G major rows; but 29 buttons need not be limiting .. there's an excellent 20 button concertina player on this c.net and she does amazing expressive music with her 20 button set up.. so you never know the possibilities until you try it out.

[Richard Mellish]

I started on a 20-button cheap and cheerful East German concertina. Very soon I was offered a 30-button Lachenal, which was a moderate-quality instrument but had had some bad leaks stuffed with toilet paper. I replaced those bodges with somewhat less nasty bodges. I briefly had a 26-button box (the make of which I have forgotten) then a 30. Eventually, when I had a concertina built for me (by Steve Dickinson, who now owns the Wheatstone brand), he suggested a 40-button, on the basis that if you don't use all of them that's no big deal, but if you have 30 and wish you had more you're stuck. I accepted that reasoning.

 

The downside of playing a 40-button concertina was that I became accustomed to using some of the extra buttons a lot. Consequently, if I now pick up a 30-button box I am frustrated by missing those extras. Consequently all the additional concertinas that I have bought over the years have also been Wheatstone-layout 40s, apart from one that I bought as an interesting curiosity.

 

They say that what you've never had you don't miss, but having had those extra buttons I certainly do miss them if I pick up a concertina without them (or indeed a Jeffries-layout one with 38 buttons, which has less than 30 the same as on a Wheatstone). Unlike some players I don't go far away from the two basic keys on a given concertina: to play a tune in a different key I switch to a different instrument, but I do make much use of alternative buttons, to play notes in the opposite bellows direction from usual.

 

What does all this mean for a beginner? Sandra has already experienced the benefit of moving to a better-quality instrument, and further improvements in that direction are possible, independently of the number of buttons. She already expects to upgrade to a 30-button in due course. I would suggest, if possible, getting her hands on one fairly soon to start feeling her way around it, to confirm whether that is indeed what she wants and how urgently. Then maybe after a few years a trial run on a 40 (or, if the 30-button is Jeffries-layout, a 38). But beware of getting trapped, as I did, into needing those extra buttons.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I think, years back, before I went to my 30 button instrument, I had transcribed or found about near 300 bits of music that worked on that 20 button concertina. Once I got to 30.. then it trebled with a few months!

Mind you, my choice was outside the tradition, but varied.🌝

[Sandra A]

Still learning...purchased something called a micro meter tool so I will know what size valves to order.  The two that have fallen off and all of the other ones are leather and actually look brand new to my untrained eye.  Once the tubing is here for the buttons and I get that job completed then I will move on to the valves.  I have taken only the one end off right now so don't know what the valves on the other end look like but if they look like these then they will look okay.  I am wondering can I just put the two back on?  One is larger than the other but they both have something that looks like wax or shellac where it had been on the reed so I think I can figure out where they were originally.  Any advice or ideas?  Then comes the pain of trying to tune it, I am hoping it won't be needed but think that is probably not a realistic expectation.  

Edited August 13, 2023 by Sandra A

[Sandra A]

Richard I really appreciate everything you said and I kind of think the same about having them even if you don't use them all of the time they are there if needed or wanted.  There really is a lot to consider when getting another one.  At this point though I think a 30b is what I will move up to next.

[Sandra A]

I received the tubing for the buttons today.  If anyone is on the fence about doing this yourself, don't be.  It was a simple, easy fix and I am learning so much about these instruments too.  I put the two valves back on with...I know all of you are going to say "noooo you didn't" shoe goo which is a form of shoe repair glue.  I figured if it doesn't work I can take it back off pretty easily.  I want it to work so badly so I can continue learning to play it.  I fixed all of the wobbly buttons on the other end too and a lot of the valves on that end are curled up quite a bit.  The place where I was going to get some new valves is taking a break right now "noooo...why now"  and I don't know when they will be back.  So, I'll either have to get them elsewhere or have a lesson in patience.  I can't order them until I get the micrometer later this week anyway to see what sizes I need, maybe they'll be back by then.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I am sure I am not the only one on c.net to find your latest reports very delightful, and informative.

One bit of advice is to keep all your spare bits, whether they are old buttons, bits of tubing left over, springs, as you may be glad to in future should you need to do more servicing of concertina.

I have a matchbox in which I keep spare buttons, and the little metal pegs that support my buttons, and even bits of tubing .. even if I replaced the old buttons long ago. Do not them them away .. keep them all, as you may be glad to in the future🌝

[Cathasach]

My favorite concertina and the one that was fun enough to get me playing regularly is also a "not really a concertina" concertina I got off of Amazon bc no where near me had concertinas for a reasonable price. I still mostly play my "crappy" concertina and I'm probably going to get the reeds replaces I love it so much.

[Wolf Molkentin]

in fact, a 30b Anglo would give you not just accidentals, but also some nice lower notes completing harmonies for the „home“ keys - but you can perfectly do without those too…

 

on a personal note: I „upgraded“ to 30 and more buttons some years ago, but didn’t play much at all ever since - recently I bought a much smaller than usual 20b instrument which assumed I would really like, which I do!

 

and for the time being I‘m perfectly happy with the somewhat restricted options of this basic layout (which got me going once again) - there’s nothing wrong with it, enjoy!

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Wolf Molkentin

[Sandra A]

10 hours ago, SIMON GABRIELOW said:

One bit of advice is to keep all your spare bits, whether they are old buttons, bits of tubing left over, springs, as you may be glad to in future should you need to do more servicing of concertina.

I am doing just that Simon.  Saving the leftover tubing and I also bought another concertina I think is made by the same ones that did the Bastari for parts.  It was $21.00 and needs the buttons redone for certain, I don't know what other problems it has but I'll see soon enough, so I think it might be nice to have for that purpose.  I got it mine all back together and sadly, it looks like trying to straighten the valves so they would lie flat didn't work.  They sing out loud when air moves over them along with other notes.  I guess they want to be included with joyful noise all of the time.  It is a lesson in patience then.  I have to wait for the micrometer to arrive so I will know what size valves to order when the shop is back from their break.  Another thing learned, it appears that leather valves that are curled up cannot be straightened and re-used.  It saddens me because I really want to play this thing right away.

[Wolf Molkentin]

sometimes it can temporarily help to flip them over and then scrape the new topside