Why are accordions relatively so cheap?

[Martin Essery]

55 minutes ago, Martin Essery said:

Thank you for your input, but I have been a musician for over half a century, at times professional and not stupid. It sounds like you are talking of the Rochelle, not the Rochelle-2, which is a much smaller instrument, presumably smaller bellows and maybe shorter reeds.

 

I am glad of your validation for the Marcus, as that is where I am headed next. I have tried a Marcus and was instantly twice the player! I tried a brand new unused Marcus too and there was twice the air in the bellows on an unused instrument compared to the Rochelle-2, which arrived very stiff and is still stiff after months of playing, with so much spring there there is no need to push, I just stop pulling as much.

 

Where I have run out of air and am not up to speed, I recognise that fact, but that is not what I am talking about, and not every tune can be played fast just so you have enough air. Although my skill with the air button could be improved, I do know how to use it, but that only helps if you have some opposite bellows notes to use it on, which is not always the case. Yes, playing staccato umpa notes makes things easier, but that is not always musically suitable, and other players on youtube do not have to resort to those techniques in the sorts of tunes that give me concern. My reference to harmonic style is to Gary Coover's Anglo Concertina in the Harmonic Style.

 

For instance, page 33, Auld Lang Syne, bars 6 and 7 are unbroken pull. My concertina, played at the right speed, the same speed that everyone else plays it at, barely makes 1 bar of melody and accompaniment on a full bellows and 2 bars is literally quite impossible. Stopping mid tune to empty the bellows would be silly. Other concertina players on youtube do not seem bothered, but my particular instrument cannot do it, and there are several other tunes in the book that produce similar problems.

 

There are other signs that my particular instrument suffers from lack of quality control. The button profiles vary from entirely flat to very rounded, so they have been hand made, but not by anyone actually paying attention. The bellows are still way stiffer after months of playing than seems reasonable. The pressure needed to make the reeds speak is very inconsistent, and with instructions from Concertina Connection, I had to retune them. Why should I need to do that on a new instrument?

As soon as I can afford it, I shall be getting a Marcus. I had thought of upgrading to a Clover, but if attention to detail is so absent on the cheaper instrument, I do not feel inclined to trust their more expensive ones. In a life as a craftsman, if I was required to make something cheaply, I did not make it shoddy, I made it as well as I could within the price constraint. While Concertina Connections makes much better instruments, the fact that they allowed this one through shows a lack of caring that I would rather not be associated with.

While I am having a quibble. When I played the Marcus, the air button was free, silent and quick, while comparatively the Rochelle-2 was reluctant, wheezy and slow. It cannot cost any more to make a larger air hole, so shows a fault in design, and another reason I would not trust the same manufacturer.

[David Barnert]

3 hours ago, Martin Essery said:

I had thought of upgrading to a Clover, but if attention to detail is so absent on the cheaper instrument, I do not feel inclined to trust their more expensive ones. In a life as a craftsman, if I was required to make something cheaply, I did not make it shoddy, I made it as well as I could within the price constraint. While Concertina Connections makes much better instruments, the fact that they allowed this one through shows a lack of caring that I would rather not be associated with.

 

Have you considered that with the Clover you can take advantage of the full purchase price trade-in program that Concertina Connection offers?

[Martin Essery]

On 8/10/2022 at 11:28 PM, David Barnert said:

 

Have you considered that with the Clover you can take advantage of the full purchase price trade-in program that Concertina Connection offers?

I had indeed considered that, but came to the conclusion that I have tried a Marcus and like it, Marcus is only an hour away with lifetime warrantee should I need it, so any small loss in resale price will be offset by the added convenience of a local provider.

[Owen Anderson]

For what it's worth, my experience with a McNeela Wren as a starter instrument (coincidentally also upgrading to a Marcus) was also similar to what you encountered with the Rochelle. These issues seem to be unfortunately common to mass produced entry level concertinas.

[Martin Essery]

7 hours ago, Owen Anderson said:

For what it's worth, my experience with a McNeela Wren as a starter instrument (coincidentally also upgrading to a Marcus) was also similar to what you encountered with the Rochelle. These issues seem to be unfortunately common to mass produced entry level concertinas.

Thank you for the confirmation. I am in the middle of possibly changing streams. My main interest is in classical music, some of which is possible on 30 buttons, and was going to get a better 30, like the Marcus before going for 40 buttons, but am wondering whether I should save for the leap to 40 straight away?

[Mikefule]

On 8/13/2022 at 12:31 PM, Martin Essery said:

Thank you for the confirmation. I am in the middle of possibly changing streams. My main interest is in classical music, some of which is possible on 30 buttons, and was going to get a better 30, like the Marcus before going for 40 buttons, but am wondering whether I should save for the leap to 40 straight away?

If your main interest is in classical music, then choosing the Anglo is not necessarily the conventional wisdom.  The Anglo is heavily biased towards a small number of related keys, and the more accidental buttons you add, the more arbitrary the layout seems to become.

 

Conventionally the English is seen as more logical and consistent, without the strong bias towards certain keys.  Duets, also, lend themselves to a wider range of music.

 

That is not to knock the Anglo, and I'm sure many people find plenty of classical pieces they can either play or adapt.

 

My own experience is that I had a 38b Anglo for a few years, but I found myself drifting towards the 30b, and now, I play the 20b almost as much as the 30b.  I choose my repertoire according to the instrument, rather than vice versa.  What I listen to for pleasure (rockabilly, country, blues) is not what I play (Morris tunes and folk).  I have one "classical" (in the broadest sense) piece in my regular repertoire: an adaptation of a trumpet piece that I can play in full harmonic style on Anglo.

[Martin Essery]

5 hours ago, Mikefule said:

If your main interest is in classical music, then choosing the Anglo is not necessarily the conventional wisdom.  The Anglo is heavily biased towards a small number of related keys, and the more accidental buttons you add, the more arbitrary the layout seems to become.

 

Conventionally the English is seen as more logical and consistent, without the strong bias towards certain keys.  Duets, also, lend themselves to a wider range of music.

 

That is not to knock the Anglo, and I'm sure many people find plenty of classical pieces they can either play or adapt.

 

My own experience is that I had a 38b Anglo for a few years, but I found myself drifting towards the 30b, and now, I play the 20b almost as much as the 30b.  I choose my repertoire according to the instrument, rather than vice versa.  What I listen to for pleasure (rockabilly, country, blues) is not what I play (Morris tunes and folk).  I have one "classical" (in the broadest sense) piece in my regular repertoire: an adaptation of a trumpet piece that I can play in full harmonic style on Anglo.

I am not conventionally wise 😄 My inspiration is such as these 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yI1GQM_NMk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0LtMgMgNcA
I feel it is the very inconsistency of the Anglo that gives it an extra dimension of life that the English and Duet seem to lack. I like the challenge 🙂

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I have to say, in my personal experience, over couple of decades of playing 30 button Anglo, I have had to change but a few musical pieces in that time. And furthermore the experience I have over that time gained in studying transposition, and hand copying in many instances, has been of great benefit in my own progress.

Whether Bach, Elgar, Purcell, Telemann, Handel, and lesser known contemporaries.. I have managed transcriptions of most with little alteration to original music.  And besides, most instruments have to be adapted at some point anyway, to better fit the range.

How often do we come across a flute music book , or recorder, which has been carefully adapted to suit? And most composers of the past were in themselves very free in their music been used for other instruments also. Bach's violin work, suddenly becomes keyboard work, or organ work etc.... A Vivaldi performance made into a flute piece [performed by James Galway; I am thinking of Spring from Four seasons on LP at one stage.]

Its up to musician to find that original way forward whatever instrument they play.

[alex_holden]

Coincidentally I just came across this short documentary about why (top quality new) accordions are so expensive:

[Don Taylor]

I don't think that 'elf an' safety would approve of this bit:

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Don Taylor

[alex_holden]

4 minutes ago, Don Taylor said:

I don't think that 'elf an' safety would approve of this bit:

 

Yep, I winced to see that, particularly when the waste piece fell into the gap next to the blade.

[Martin Essery]

I thought I would reawaken this thread, as I am about to put my money where my mouth is. I played accordion in my youth and am curious how much has changed for me in the half a century since, but do not want to commit multiple thousands for a decent accordion just to satisfy my curiosity. So, I am getting a 120 IV bass Startone from Thomann's, 850 quid.

 

So for the price of a top of the range Stagi, I get this monster. Now I am not expecting anything fantastic for sure, but I am expecting it to be playable. Thomann is a large company, also selling some decent stuff, and this comes with a 30 day money back offer, and 3 years warranty, so it would seem foolish of them to be selling these if they were complete garbage. I am not expecting the best tone, but I am expecting to be able to play music.

 

Let me compare: there are 41 treble keys, and just one bank of reeds is more than the Stagi, but there are 4 banks of reeds selectable in 11 different sets plus two repeats, plus a master control, so, reed wise, already worth 4 concertinas! Then there is the 120 bass with another 4 banks of reeds, selectable in 7 different sets. Although 120 bass is not 120 reeds, that is still a lot of complex mechanism.

 

Is Stagi a fair comparison? Maybe a cheap Chinese concertina for a couple of hundred quid would be better? But this instrument still has way more in it than 8 concertinas.

 

When I first wrote this post, some were saying you could not get an accordion for the price of a concertina, well, here it is. It was also pointed out that economy of scale would bring the price down, but, really, that much? If this company was to make a concertina, I wonder how much it would cost?

 

Already paid for, awaiting delivery, but sharing my thoughts ahead of time. Maybe, I should rephrase the question to, why are concertinas so expensive?

[Ken_Coles]

Why are concertinas so expensive? Two things come to mind. First, there is much less space inside to fit an action that is expected to be uniform in feel and response over a range of three octaves (or more). Some of us tried to count the parts in a trad concertina once (over some beers, which probably didn't help!) and gave up somewhere around 1500. It is almost a piano in a tiny box! Accordion reed blocks are simpler construction than chambered reed pans, and so on. Labor is important too. Makers give me the impression it is not possible to make a concertina to meet the traditional standard with less than about 100 hours of skilled labor. I'll bet that number is lower for an accordion, which ties into the next point: Second, the market scale is different. A clarinet has very elaborate key work, but you can buy a decent used one very cheap where I live - the economies of scale are important. Contrast the guitar market with the concertina market. At least a factor of 1,000, maybe more.

 

This question has been asked more times than I can count. Welcome to the bafflement.

 

Ken

 

 

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

Many years ago now, I inhertited accordion from my Father, who played it quite often. He never learned to read music much, but played a selection of loud cheery pieces best he could. It was 2001 when I started to use his hohner C sharp accordion myself ( and I  practiced ).. got better with time, and found the jump up from my 30 key Anglo very helpful; as many of the buttons produced the same note in layout, and it was the bigger scale in button placement that is the only big difference. ( Bigger physical jumps for the fingers). So it made it easier overall. Also, using the basses to the left side was straightforward, because using Anglo concertina also have to be supple on both hands ( left and right) when playing.

His accordion ( which for first ever time in over two decades of owning it now)I recorded playing it myself on video, ( my you-tube channel).now as my own of course, has not hundreds of basses, but a selection with chords on them and a couple of single note options also.  Back in 1984 when he bough it it would have been middle range price.. but the memory and sentiment attatched to it  is priceless to me. He recorded an audio tape playing it himself years ago .. 'very lively and loud'! But with a typically cheerful sound.😊 You can hear his own playing audio on my 'tube channel' also..

[Martin Essery]

On 8/15/2022 at 7:06 PM, alex_holden said:

 

Yep, I winced to see that, particularly when the waste piece fell into the gap next to the blade.

Yet he does that all day every day for years and stillhas all his fingers 😄 Accidents only happen to people not paying attention, and no amount of safety procedures and equipment is going to stop that.

[Martin Essery]

On 8/23/2023 at 11:10 PM, Ken_Coles said:

Why are concertinas so expensive? Two things come to mind. First, there is much less space inside to fit an action that is expected to be uniform in feel and response over a range of three octaves (or more). Some of us tried to count the parts in a trad concertina once (over some beers, which probably didn't help!) and gave up somewhere around 1500. It is almost a piano in a tiny box! Accordion reed blocks are simpler construction than chambered reed pans, and so on. Labor is important too. Makers give me the impression it is not possible to make a concertina to meet the traditional standard with less than about 100 hours of skilled labor. I'll bet that number is lower for an accordion, which ties into the next point: Second, the market scale is different. A clarinet has very elaborate key work, but you can buy a decent used one very cheap where I live - the economies of scale are important. Contrast the guitar market with the concertina market. At least a factor of 1,000, maybe more.

 

This question has been asked more times than I can count. Welcome to the bafflement.

 

Ken

 

 

If we are into parts count, then it is 12,000 for a big accordion. They may have more space, but have a lot more moving bits too.
 

I will accept the market forces argument though, and economy of scale. If this Startone tunes out to be even vaguely decent, I shall enquire if they want to start making concertinas, the cheap ones on the market that I have tried are unplayable!

[Martin Essery]

On 8/15/2022 at 6:15 PM, alex_holden said:

Coincidentally I just came across this short documentary about why (top quality new) accordions are so expensive:

Excellent, so, even though a lesser quality, how can Startone make a concertina with 12,000 moving parts for 850 quid?

[Steve Schulteis]

30 minutes ago, Martin Essery said:

Yet he does that all day every day for years and stillhas all his fingers 😄 Accidents only happen to people not paying attention, and no amount of safety procedures and equipment is going to stop that.

 

Statistics indicate otherwise. Attention only has to slip one time and just for a moment. I'm not perfect, so I'll take some cheap insurance. I want those fingers for playing concertina!