Concertinas A "women's Instrument"?

[JimLucas]

It seems from what's been posted above as if there was maybe some sort of disparity between actual numbers of the players of each sex and the general notion of what those numbers should have been... or maybe not? It's not that easy to tell is it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you know of any countries that include "musical instrument(s) played" among the census data they collect?

[Stephen Chambers]

... this morning I was reading a bit of Gearoid O'Hallmhurain's "A Pocket History of Irish Traditional Music" and came across this line about 1880s Ireland: "The concertina replaced the pipes as a household instrument, especially among female players" (80).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An interesting assertion, especially when you consider the lack of evidence for there having been female pipers, or for the pipes having been a "household instrument", prior to that time.

 

However, there is evidence to suggest that the only "household instrument" in the 1830's had been the Jew's harp, and there were probably more people playing Irish music in the 1880's than at any time prior to that.

 

What happened in the 1880's was that German manufacturers had started to export large quantities of inexpensive goods the previous decade (Germany, especially Saxony, was the "China" of that era), coinciding with improved transport & marketing, and more people starting to have some "disposable income" to spend on them. German concertinas and the new "melodeons" were very popular, being inexpensive, easier to learn, play and look after than many other instruments. And in my experience, many of the older players would play either the German concertina or the melodeon, depending on which was available at the time. They were both "played by numbers", often stamped (or stuck) on the instrument, in the same way.

Edited June 2, 2005 by Stephen Chambers

[gretchen]

Do you know of any countries that include "musical instrument(s) played" among the census data they collect?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ah, sadly no. Would be interesting enough though, surely. But actually, the comment I was meaning to make was more along the lines of 'interesting that there are so many more male concertina players around today, considering the potential perception of a sort of "womanliness (or so)" surrounding the instrument'. I think the confusion in that sentence comes from the fact that I should have put

"It seems from what's been posted above as if there is maybe some sort of disparity between actual numbers..." rather than having a was there, since I was refering to the postings on this board. Sorry for the confusion there.

[Rod Thompson]

Putting this together with a few other threads - I have come to the conclusion that the typical concertina player of a hundred and something years ago was a sea-faring woman with a monkey on her shoulder.

[David Barnert]

Actually, there is plenty of evidence to show that women did play the viola da gamba, and there are many images of them doing so...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Curious, though, that in three of the four examples, the viola is nowhere near the lady's gambas (legs) and certainly not between them. She is either tuning it in a standing position (Musscher) or playing it long distance (Metsu) or side-saddle (Netscher). Edited June 2, 2005 by David Barnert

[Alan Day]

I wonder too if Stephen that the Irish being a religious nation found the concertina and melodeon more suitable for outdoor meetings and of course marches,in the same way that the Salvation Army did by adopting these instruments to take religion,religious music and ceromonies out into the countryside.

Al

 

Edited to add,Thanks for the lovely pictures.

Edited June 2, 2005 by Alan Day

[Mark Evans]

I wonder too if Stephen that the Irish being a religious nation found the concertina and melodeon more suitable for outdoor meetings and of course marches,in the same way that the Salvation Army did by adopting these instruments to take religion,religious music and ceromonies out into the countryside.

Al

 

Edited to add,Thanks for the lovely pictures.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

My limited experience would tack against the wind on that conjecture Al. Back in me religious days I was a music director/cantor in the church. At first I was perplexed that more than half the folks at Mass refused to sing no matter what I did. A very nice fellow in my choir John Regen (good button box player by the way) explained it to me, "Mark, they're all Irish decent." Okay, so?

 

A little book I was given by the parish priest "Why Catholics Don't Sing" put forth the supposition that shortly after Henery VIII shed himself of Catherine, holding a Catholic Mass was outlawed. People held mass outdoors alright, but in quiet so as not to attract attention. Tradition...be quiet in church. Hum....

 

Funny, but the same crowd of non-singers over at the parish hall...pull out John Regen's box and they would roar out song after Irish song....So, sing ta' pub not in church....

Edited June 2, 2005 by Mark Evans

[felix]

I'm a piper too, and I know too that mouth blown pipes were included in the "mens instrument category", because people thought that it wasn't beatiful or pretty for a lady put her face "red" or fill the mouth with air, because of the effort of playing the instrument, this was a reason because people thought that the bellows blown pipes (most part of them form the baroque period) were more suitable for ladies.

 

In the same way, comparing accordions and concertinas, the accordion needs more effort and body movement for playing them, but concertinas seem more "delicate" instruments, that can be played with less effort.

Moreover, the accordion sound, till recent times, it was more wet, mussette, and concertina had a more delicate and musical sound.

 

I think

 

Felix Castro

[gretchen]

My limited experience would tack against the wind on that conjecture Al.  Back in me religious days I was a music director/cantor in the church.  At first I was perplexed that more than half the folks at Mass refused to sing no matter what I did.  A very nice fellow in my choir John Regen (good button box player by the way) explained it to me, "Mark, they're all Irish decent."  Okay, so?

 

A little book I was given by the parish priest "Why Catholics Don't Sing" put forth the supposition that shortly after Henery VIII shed himself of Catherine, holding a Catholic Mass was outlawed.  People held mass outdoors alright, but in quiet so as not to attract attention.  Tradition...be quiet in church.  Hum....

 

Funny, but the same crowd of non-singers over at the parish hall...pull out John Regen's box and they would roar out song after Irish song....So, sing ta' pub not in church....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This isn't necessarily to disagree with you Mark, just to add that I lived with a family in the connamara gaeltacht this past summer and in visiting the church in my town to hear the mass (in Irish), I was very surprised by the style of singing for the hymns... they seemed to be a sort of mix of regular hymn-type singing and sean-nos style singing (in terms of the tone and ornamentation, it wasn't that the songs were unaccompanied or anything)... and the people singing seemed very enthusiastic... one old gentleman in particular. Anyway, I'm not a religious type myself, so I really have no basis for comparison for this in other churches (I went to church in Ireland mainly to learn to vocabulary and practice my listening skills) but there certainly seemed to be a tradition of signing in church there... but again, it was quite different from the singing that went on in the pubs.

[Mark Evans]

[

... they seemed to be a sort of mix of regular hymn-type singing and sean-nos style singing (in terms of the tone and ornamentation, it wasn't that the songs were unaccompanied or anything)... and the people singing seemed very enthusiastic... one old gentleman in particular. ... but there certainly seemed to be a tradition of signing in church there...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Gretchen, I am very glad to read this. The book "Why Catholics Don't Sing" did have an axe to grind about the domination of the priesthood here in New England by Irish decendants and what seems to be a tradition of silence in church. A number of ills were blamed on them.

 

I would love to hear that ornementation in Connamara.

[Stephen Chambers]

I wonder too if Stephen that the Irish being a religious nation found the concertina and melodeon more suitable for outdoor meetings and of course marches ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My limited experience would tack against the wind on that conjecture Al. Back in me religious days I was a music director/cantor in the church. At first I was perplexed that more than half the folks at Mass refused to sing no matter what I did. A very nice fellow in my choir John Regen (good button box player by the way) explained it to me, "Mark, they're all Irish decent."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My own experience would agree with Mark's, indeed coming from a "High Church" background I have been very disappointed to find very little music in Irish Roman Catholic churches, apart from the odd "Folk Mass" (a modern concept, and usually pretty dire !).

 

There has been some marching with concertinas/accordions, but usually by Orange bands in Northern Ireland.