Irish On An English?

[Daddy Long Les]

I was listening to some concertina albums on iTunes today and watching some You Tube videos of a lot of great Irish concertina music.

 

I have an English Concertina so would I be able to play that style on my instrument or would I need to get an Anglo as most of the Irish players I looked at were playing that type?

 

If this is the case, would you recommend 20 or 30 button to start with and what sort of money would I be looking at for something that was playable and in tune?

 

I'm just dipping my toe in the water here but I'd be interested to hear people's views. I am a professional musician who plays lots of instruments so I'm used to flitting from one to another!

 

I have lots of diatonic melodeons (DG GC GCF ADG) that I already play so I'm guessing the learning curve wouldn't be that huge

 

Thank you in advance of any advice you can offer me.

 

Les

[Bob Michel]

It's an endlessly discussed question. My take, for what it's worth, is that there's no reason on earth why you can't play Irish music well on an English concertina; many people have done it to a very high standard, including members of this forum.

 

It's true, however, that the bellows work that's necessary to crank out a tune on an Anglo gives the music a distinctive lift or bounce that can be difficult (though not impossible) to emulate on an English box--particularly since mentors in that style are relatively few.

 

On the other hand, emulating the sound of an Anglo isn't the only valid approach to playing Irish music on a concertina. If that *is* the specific sound you're after, though, then it might make better sense just to play an Anglo.

 

In that case you'd want an instrument with 30 (or more) buttons--26 at an absolute minimum, I should think, apart from some very rare custom models with still fewer. D is the most common key in Irish music as it's usually played in a group setting, and to play in D you need a C#, which a 20-button C/G instrument lacks. You can indeed play thousands of Irish tunes on a 20-button Anglo, but it will be hard to play with others, and there are some standard tunes you won't be able to play at all.

 

A new Rochelle costs about what its English-system cousin the Jackie does. A used hybrid instrument (traditional construction with accordion reeds) can sometimes be had for around US$1200-1500.* A new one of these will be $2500 or more--a price range in which you might also find a playable Lachenal. For a new instrument with concertina reeds by a top maker, or a high-quality vintage instrument, the sticker shock can be rather extreme.

 

Bob Michel

Near Philly

 

*These estimates are based on prices I see on this side of the pond, where concertinas are harder to come by; you'll probably want to adjust them downward slightly for the U.K.

[Azalin]

Great answer Bob!

[Geoff Wooff]

See the Youtube videos of someone called 'clunktrip' for some ideas of playing Irish on the English.

 

This is something I have done for many years though I prefer a more Co.Clare pace myself, but if you are conversant with push/ pull boxes and have not gone far down the EC road why not give the anglo a shot. There are plenty of tutor vids and classes for doing Irish on the Anglo but very little for the EC...

Edited September 22, 2015 by Geoff Wooff

[Daddy Long Les]

It's an endlessly discussed question. My take, for what it's worth, is that there's no reason on earth why you can't play Irish music well on an English concertina; many people have done it to a very high standard, including members of this forum.

It's true, however, that the bellows work that's necessary to crank out a tune on an Anglo gives the music a distinctive lift or bounce that can be difficult (though not impossible) to emulate on an English box--particularly since mentors in that style are relatively few.

On the other hand, emulating the sound of an Anglo isn't the only valid approach to playing Irish music on a concertina. If that *is* the specific sound you're after, though, then it might make better sense just to play an Anglo.

In that case you'd want an instrument with 30 (or more) buttons--26 at an absolute minimum, I should think, apart from some very rare custom models with still fewer. D is the most common key in Irish music as it's usually played in a group setting, and to play in D you need a C#, which a 20-button C/G instrument lacks. You can indeed play thousands of Irish tunes on a 20-button Anglo, but it will be hard to play with others, and there are some standard tunes you won't be able to play at all.

A new Rochelle costs about what its English-system cousin the Jackie does. A used hybrid instrument (traditional construction with accordion reeds) can sometimes be had for around US$1200-1500.* A new one of these will be $2500 or more--a price range in which you might also find a playable Lachenal. For a new instrument with concertina reeds by a top maker, or a high-quality vintage instrument, the sticker shock can be rather extreme.

Bob Michel

Near Philly

*These estimates are based on prices I see on this side of the pond, where concertinas are harder to come by; you'll probably want to adjust them downward slightly for the U.K.

Thank you Bob for a very comprehensive answer.

 

Les

[Daddy Long Les]

See the Youtube videos of someone called 'clunktrip' for some ideas of playing Irish on the English.This is something I have done for many years though I prefer a more Co.Clare pace myself, but if you are conversant with push/ pull boxes and have not gone far down the EC road why not give the anglo a shot. There are plenty of tutor vids and classes for doing Irish on the Anglo but very little for the EC...

Thanks Geoff,

 

This is helpful although I couldn't find clunktrip.

 

Love my English so the Anglo would be an addition not a replacement.

 

Les

[Chris Drinkwater]

I play the English concertina and my main repertoire is English traditional music. However, last year, I contributed two Irish tunes I had learned over the years, Out on the Ocean and Calliope House to the Irish on an English theme, which I uploaded to Soundcloud.

 

https://soundcloud.com/aeolaman/out-on-the-ocean-calliope-house

 

And then there's Rick Epping, a wonderful Californian player of the English Concertina, who often plays harmonica at the same time and who's repertoire is mainly Irish.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOi6nY4JIMM

 

Chris

[Daddy Long Les]

I play the English concertina and my main repertoire is English traditional music. However, last year, I contributed two Irish tunes I had learned over the years, Out on the Ocean and Calliope House to the Irish on an English theme, which I uploaded to Soundcloud.

 

https://soundcloud.com/aeolaman/out-on-the-ocean-calliope-house

 

And then there's Rick Epping, a wonderful Californian player of the English Concertina, who often plays harmonica at the same time and who's repertoire is mainly Irish.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOi6nY4JIMM

 

Chris

Thanks Chris,

I really liked your slow piece on Soundcloud.

 

Les

[Geoff Wooff]

 

See the Youtube videos of someone called 'clunktrip' for some ideas of playing Irish on the English.This is something I have done for many years though I prefer a more Co.Clare pace myself, but if you are conversant with push/ pull boxes and have not gone far down the EC road why not give the anglo a shot. There are plenty of tutor vids and classes for doing Irish on the Anglo but very little for the EC...

Thanks Geoff,

 

This is helpful although I couldn't find clunktrip.

 

 

 

 

Love my English so the Anglo would be an addition not a replacement.

 

Les

 

Just go to Youtube and put clunktrip in the search box and several videos will appear.

[Daddy Long Les]

 

 

See the Youtube videos of someone called 'clunktrip' for some ideas of playing Irish on the English.This is something I have done for many years though I prefer a more Co.Clare pace myself, but if you are conversant with push/ pull boxes and have not gone far down the EC road why not give the anglo a shot. There are plenty of tutor vids and classes for doing Irish on the Anglo but very little for the EC...

Thanks Geoff,

 

This is helpful although I couldn't find clunktrip.

 

 

 

 

Love my English so the Anglo would be an addition not a replacement.

 

Les

 

Just go to Youtube and put clunktrip in the search box and several videos will appear.

 

Thanks Geoff. Found the videos - er.............. I think this answers my question don't you?!!!!

 

 

[Peter Laban]

And then there's Rick Epping, a wonderful Californian player of the English Concertina, who often plays harmonica at the same time and who's repertoire is mainly Irish.

 

In all fairness, Rick Epping, and Mick Kinsella for that matter, only uses the concertina to provide simple chordal accompaniment to his harmonica playing

[Roger Hare]

See the Youtube videos of someone called 'clunktrip' for some ideas of playing Irish on the English.

 

I think there are also some clips on YouTube of Dick Glasgow playing 'Irish music' on an EC.

Search for 'Scad the Beggars'.

 

Sounded OK to me...

 

Roger.

Edited September 23, 2015 by lachenal74693

[Jack Campin]

two Irish tunes I had learned over the years, Out on the Ocean and Calliope House

 

Calliope House was written in America by an Englishman who lives in Edinburgh.

[Geoff Wooff]

When trying something like this, learning a specific music on an instrument with few examples or no great tradition of use, it is important to find a good and understandable reference point. I very strongly suggest listening to the concise playing of Mary MacNamara. Mary plays at a nice easy pace and does not fill the tunes with decorations and her phrasing is so particular and clear that one should be able to pick up the inner rhythms and real sense of this haunting music.

 

As far as I am aware there are three CD albums from Mary MacNamara, two have some accompaniment and one is entirely solo. Ok she plays the Anglo but it is not the instrument but the essence of the music which is important.

 

Listen to this untill it comes back out in your fingers.

[chas]

Les, you'll find a lot of useful discussion in a similarly named thread here. There was an Irish theme of the month a while back, on which you can hear forum members' attempts on anglo, English and even duet. Someone else to listen to on You tube is Henrik Muller, who plays a somewhat adapted English.

 

I'd agree with everything that has been said. The question is whether you need to learn anglo. As you've realised through listening to "Clunktrip" (thanks for that link Geoff - I hadn't heard him before) it's perfectly possible to play Irish music very successfully on an EC. The more time you devote to the English system and the better you get, the more you will be able to get a convincing Irish pulse in your playing.

Yes, as an experienced melodeonist, you are familiar with diatonic instruments. But playing Irish style anglo is very different indeed from playing melodeon, especially when playing in D on a C/G anglo. It's a real discipline, demanding a lot of time and effort.

Of course, some Irish trad music purists, on seeing you with an English, might tell you you're playing the wrong instrument, but that's their problem!

If you want to devote your life to learning Irish style concertina, including attending Noel Hill summer schools etc., then buy an anglo and enjoy the ride. But if you just hope to add some Irish music to your repertoire, you don't need to embark on another instrument.

[Daddy Long Les]

Les, you'll find a lot of useful discussion in a similarly named thread here. There was an Irish theme of the month a while back, on which you can hear forum members' attempts on anglo, English and even duet. Someone else to listen to on You tube is Henrik Muller, who plays a somewhat adapted English.

 

I'd agree with everything that has been said. The question is whether you need to learn anglo. As you've realised through listening to "Clunktrip" (thanks for that link Geoff - I hadn't heard him before) it's perfectly possible to play Irish music very successfully on an EC. The more time you devote to the English system and the better you get, the more you will be able to get a convincing Irish pulse in your playing.

Yes, as an experienced melodeonist, you are familiar with diatonic instruments. But playing Irish style anglo is very different indeed from playing melodeon, especially when playing in D on a C/G anglo. It's a real discipline, demanding a lot of time and effort.

Of course, some Irish trad music purists, on seeing you with an English, might tell you you're playing the wrong instrument, but that's their problem!

If you want to devote your life to learning Irish style concertina, including attending Noel Hill summer schools etc., then buy an anglo and enjoy the ride. But if you just hope to add some Irish music to your repertoire, you don't need to embark on another instrument.

 

 

The perfect answer and it couldn't have come at a better time! I really appreciate the time you have taken to put this together.

Many Thanks

 

Les

Edited September 23, 2015 by Daddy Long Les

[Daddy Long Les]

When trying something like this, learning a specific music on an instrument with few examples or no great tradition of use, it is important to find a good and understandable reference point. I very strongly suggest listening to the concise playing of Mary MacNamara. Mary plays at a nice easy pace and does not fill the tunes with decorations and her phrasing is so particular and clear that one should be able to pick up the inner rhythms and real sense of this haunting music.

 

As far as I am aware there are three CD albums from Mary MacNamara, two have some accompaniment and one is entirely solo. Ok she plays the Anglo but it is not the instrument but the essence of the music which is important.

 

Listen to this untill it comes back out in your fingers.

Sound advice as always Geoff. I'll give Mary a listen.

 

Many Thanks

Les

[Bob Michel]

Sound advice as always Geoff. I'll give Mary a listen.

Les

Duly seconded. I can't think of a better primer than Mary's playing.

 

You might also seek out recordings by Charlie Coen, both with his late brother Jack ("The Branch Line") and solo ("Father Charlie" and a very recent one I haven't picked up yet). His style is, if anything, even more spare than Mary's, but lacks for nothing at all. Two other commercially recorded artists who come to mind are Jacqueline McCarthy and (of course) the great Chris Droney.

 

All these players have distinctive styles of their own, but they all understand that one well-placed ornament is worth ten flashy ones. (By which I don't mean to belittle anyone else's approach; it's just the kind of playing I prefer.)

 

Bob Michel

Near Philly