Spring Making?...

[RAc]

Hi all,

 

I've tried to figure out Bob Tedrow's device for manual spring making he uses on his home page video, but the video is too low resolution to figure this out.

 

the tampered steel used for spring wire is very stubborn (it better be), so trying to coil it manually is almost impossible (at least for a weenie like me). I've tried to come up with easy devices to aid the coiling but so far to no avail.

 

Does anyone have a cool solution figured out or has details about the type of device Bob uses - ie how is the wire clamped to it so that one can still release the entire thing after coiling?

 

Thanks for any input and sorry if this should be a dupe, but I checked the forum beforehand and couldn't find anything.

 

Thanks a bunch!

 

 

[Anglo-Irishman]

Hi, Rüdiger,

 

I don't know how Bob does it, but my approach is (as with most things) multi-instrumental. I make new concertina springs out of old autoharp strings. The thickest plain steel strings (about 0.5 mm dia.) are ideal. The only tools I need are a pair of needle-nose pliers, a pair of flat pliers and a wire cutter.

 

The trick is to shape the spring on the end of a long piece of wire (as opposed to cutting off the necessary length of wire and then trying to bend it). This gives you the leverage to make the sharp angles and tight coils.

The sequence of tasks is:

• With needle-nose pliers, form the hook to engage the action lever
• With flat pliers, bend this hook at right angles to the wire
• With needle-nose pliers, grip the wire at the appropriate point, and wrap the wire tightly round one jaw of the pliers (the long end of the wire gives you both the grip and the leverage to make the coils tight)
• With flat pliers, make a right-angle bend where the spring is to penetrate the action board
• Cut off the finished spring just below this bend!

You can get quite a few concertina springs out of one autoharp string this way. Needless to say, you must be aware of whether the spring is to be left-handed or right-handed, and see that the axes of the bends are in a correct relation to each other. But you'll probably have an old, broken or weak spring to use as a model.

 

I'll see you in two weeks' time at Wartaweil (South-German concertina gathering), so I'll try to bring an old 'harp string to demonstrate the process (should be part of my first-aid kit anyway, along with the pliers and screwdrivers!)

 

Cheers,

John

[Laurence]

John, is there another instrument besides the autoharp that might have the right sized string? 5mm = 0.19685 in., and no guitar string really comes close. What would happen if the gauge was a little larger, like 0.22"? Would that make the action of the button too quick...too hard to press? What size is standard for the better concertinas? Do some pro players prefer a "stiff" action?

[Guest mglamb]

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Edited August 10, 2013 by mglamb

[Laurence]

Yep, forgot to enter the decimal...thanks.

[Anglo-Irishman]

John, is there another instrument besides the autoharp that might have the right sized string? 5mm = 0.19685 in., and no guitar string really comes close. What would happen if the gauge was a little larger, like 0.22"? Would that make the action of the button too quick...too hard to press? What size is standard for the better concertinas? Do some pro players prefer a "stiff" action?

Laurence,

 

I'm not sure about the actual diameter, but I tried the thinnest piano wire that a piano repairman could give me, and it was too stiff for a concertina spring (and too heavy for the corresponding position on an autoharp). You might be able to get thinner wire from someone who repairs harpsichords or spinets.

 

I found I could adjust the button pressure quite delicately by just opening or closing the 0.5 mm spring a little before installing it. It should be possible to cover the range between a "very stiff" and "very light" action this way. However, if you're just replacing one broken spring, you should see to it that the button has the same characteristic as the others, and this is definitely possible!

 

I don't know what "pro" players prefer, but my take is that the pressure required should be as light as possible while still closing the pad reliably. As with fretted string instruments, the less force you have to exert, the faster you can play. But this is true only when the buttons all have the same "feel." Irregular button pressures are going to make your playing irregular, especially at speed!

 

Cheers,

John

[Wolf Molkentin]

I don't know what "pro" players prefer, but my take is that the pressure required should be as light as possible while still closing the pad reliably. As with fretted string instruments, the less force you have to exert, the faster you can play.

 

Neither do I. But your opting this way comes out sort of funny (or should I say: appropriate) for me. We once discussed the specific "resistance" of a given instrument (which I considered of importance for the main part). You did counter that with your notion of a different "propensity". Corresponding to that contrast I would (as far as my own playing is concerned) oppose to your favouritism of light action - maybe not regarding highest possible playing speed, but in respect to expressiveness (with ornamentation a.s.f.).

 

I'm well aware of the fact that many fellow players will jugde differently. Greater "resistance" (or "stiffness") just seems to fit my personal muscial approach - and maybe personality along a wider front...

 

Anyway, thank you very much for that spring-making suggestion - guess I might have to come back to this someday...

 

Best regards - Wolf

[Anglo-Irishman]

 

We once discussed the specific "resistance" of a given instrument (which I considered of importance for the main part). You did counter that with your notion of a different "propensity". Corresponding to that contrast I would (as far as my own playing is concerned) oppose to your favouritism of light action - maybe not regarding highest possible playing speed, but in respect to expressiveness (with ornamentation a.s.f.).

 

 

Wolf,

 

My remarks about "resistance" and "propensity" in that thread applied to a decent-quality,well set-up specimen (however you define that) of the respective instrument. The best Anglo, for instance, offers resistance to playing sophisticated harmonies outside of its home keys, whereas the best piano offers resistance to shaping notes dynamically (e.g. no sforzando possible).

On the other hand, poor construction or bad set-up of any individual instrument can impair the "propensities" that this instrument as a class may have, when its action offers resistance to the fingers. You mention ornamentation: on my main instruments, the concertina and the banjo, I can execute ornaments best when I have a light action that reacts to the flick of a finger. And for me personally, that means concertina springs that are just strong enough to keep the pads closed, and banjo strings that are as close to the fingerboard as they can get without buzzing.

 

Cheers,

John

[RAc]

superseded by subsequent explanations from people who know better, at least I *started* a helpful thread...

Edited January 22, 2016 by Ruediger R. Asche

[david robertson]

I have my doubts about the use of tempered steel wire. I've never tried it, but isn't it rather resistant to shaping? I use 0.025" phosphor-bronze wire, which combines excellent springiness with comparative ease of shaping. The pictures show the rather crude but effective jig that I use. A horizontal hole is drilled through two pieces of brass plate. A third, undrilled piece blocks the end of the hole. These bits of brass, and three short lengths of steel rod, are fixed into an MDF base. I insert the end of the wire into the hole in the brass plates, and bend it through 90 degrees. I then wind it round the various pieces of rod fixed into the plate. (I have put a spring in place to show the route.) Note that the two pieces of rod which form the hook of the spring are uneven in height - keep the left one a little higher than the right so that you can bend the wire round it without the right-hand one getting in the way. When you remove your finished spring, cut the wire off at 45 degrees, to leave a nice sharp point for the next one.

 

 

[RAc]

Edited January 22, 2016 by Ruediger R. Asche

[Laurence]

So, this begs the question. What is the wire made of that's used for springs? All steel "music wire" is tempered, right? Steel is an alloy, right? Iron and a whole bunch of other metals including aluminum and titanium. But how much? Adding more tin or phosphor, perhaps even a little copper...would this prevent a wire from being tempered for adequate spring strength, or giving it adequate resistance? BTW, if musical instrument wire is used, such as autoharp mentioned at the top of this thread, it's probably best to avoid "used" strings, right? They've been stretched and thinned probably?

[d.elliott]

Gents,

 

this is all about getting a result, and that result is about the spring wire material's yield stress and the wires diameter or more correctly its cross sectional area combined with the leverage from the spring's arm lengths

 

The spring needs a certain force or strength to keep the pads closed and to return the key back to its position without developing the finger muscles of a blacksmith. The geometry of the spring is fairly fixed by virtue of the need to conform to what the spring was like that is being replaced so the spring arms and coils diameters are more or less a given. Spring wire with a too higher yield will make the instrument hard to play. too lower yield will be soft and the springs will lose their springiness very quickly, compensate by increasing or reducing the wire diameter to some degree, or by tempering back steel, brass/ phosphor bronze wire is the same, but uses a different process.

 

Alloying elements are not something the repairer can play with, and tempering is difficult on wires and needs an inert atmosphere.

 

Brasses are hardened by cold working, by the hammering down and drawing processes, a pre-stressed played string may be further work hardened and brittle.Steel is hardened by working as well as by heat treatment

 

Personally I don't use steel springs, they are too stiff or too fine. I use phosphor bronze wire in the half hard condition, around 22 thou diameter. Not bought as music wire, but as spring or engineering wire. Do not get the wire the bead and 'jewelry' hobbyists use, it is fully annealed having zero spring capability.

 

I have a little spring forming device like Dave Robertson does, but I have a nylon washer over the mandrel under the spring so as I form the coils I can pull down towards the backing board which keeps the 'pigtail' coils tightly compressed together.

 

 

Dave

Edited April 21, 2013 by d.elliott

[Laurence]

Here's a link to previous discussion...with more links within

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=9207

 

Also, another interesting link about materials for making springs...

http://home.earthlink.net/~bazillion/matls.html

[david robertson]

 

 

I have a little spring forming device like Dave Robertson does, but I have a nylon washer over the mandrel under the spring so as I form the coils I can pull down towards the backing board which keeps the 'pigtail' coils tightly compressed together.

 

Dave

 

Thanks, Dave, I like that idea - I must admit I currently reject about one in ten springs because I haven't kept the coils close enough!

[d.elliott]

glad to help, just page the oracle.

 

D

[Anglo-Irishman]

BTW, if musical instrument wire is used, such as autoharp mentioned at the top of this thread, it's probably best to avoid "used" strings, right? They've been stretched and thinned probably?

 

Well, no, used strings are OK!

 

How I hit on autoharp strings was that a spring on my Stagi broke, and I needed a quick fix. I tried a modified safety-pin, but that was too stiff and slow. Then I tried the thinnest piano wire, of which I happened to have a piece lying around, but this had the same result. So I resorted to the (thinner) autoharp string, which had recently broken and been replaced and I hadn't got round to throwing away yet. My first attempt produced a button pressure that was noticeably higher than the other buttons, but I just bent the coil to a slightly more acute angle, and the button pressure was perfectly uniform.

 

As I say, this was intended as a quick fix, but it's been in service intensively for over 5 years now, and the button still feels just like the others. I might add that the button involved is one of the most frequently used (otherwise its spring probably wouldn't have broken in the first place!)

 

Cheers,

John

[SteveS]

Came to this topic just now - unfortunately the pictures seem to have disappeared.

Any chance of posting your spring winder pictures.

Thanks