Fingering choices

[Jeff Benefiel]

I wish to learn Sea Shantys and Irish music. The English system "seems" less daunting because of the notes being the same in either direction of the bellows travel. The video of Chantal Noppen playing a Jackie sure looked to be a jamming Celtic tune so it would seem to my naive ears that it is possible. I played the Clarinet in high school and can resurrect those brain cells to read sheet music again. I guess the real question is "are there things that absolutely can ONLY be done on an Anglo"? Thanks in advance for your time.

 

Jeff

[david_boveri]

the biggest thing that can only be done on the anglo is get lessons from just about anywhere. there are two good anglo teachers near you in the bay area, for example (if you really are in berkely), but i can't think of a good irish teacher for english anywhere in your time zone. traditionally irish music is played on the anglo, so you can of course play it on the english but you will have very little resources and people to draw from.

 

in case anyone wants to accuse me of being biased, i do know what it is like to play a non-traditional instrument in irish music. i play the silver flute, which is not very traditional. the problem is: how do you make a trad sound, do all the ornamentation, and how do you play the silver flute differently than in classical music. these are very challenging issues. luckily, i happen to be related to a

who helped me overcome all these hurdles. if you happen to already have an english concertina, or try an anglo and really can't stand it, then go ahead. take the path less travelled . otherwise, i would recommend trying out the well-trodden road to see if you like it, because you can meet a lot more friends along the way.

[hjcjones]

No! I've heard Dave Townsend play morris tunes on EC and could have sworn he was playing anglo.

 

The EC will probably let you play in more keys, so unless your singing voice matches the home keys of an anglo you may find the EC better for accompanying shanties. The purists will tell you that only the anglo can play Irish music, but that's a bit of a circular argument - because the Irish tradition is based on anglo then they claim that only the anglo can play it properly. Irish music on EC may not sound quite the same as on anglo, but that's not to say it can't be done, even less that it shouldn't be.

 

However don't assume the English system is less daunting to play. Although the notes are the same both ways, the scale alternates between left and right hands - personally I find that daunting, whereas the push-pull of an anglo is fairly intuitive. But that's me, your response may be different. It's difficult to know which will suit you better until you try. If you play from sheet music and think in terms of musical theory then you may find the English more suitable, whereas if you play by ear and instinct the anglo may be your choice, but there will be plenty of people on here who will tell you the reverse is also true! And that's without considering duets...

 

It's not an easy choice. You can narrow it down based on logical analysis but at the end of the day it depends on how your brain works. Some can't cope with push-pull, some can't cope with left-right. Some can manage both, which is a total mystery to me.

[Frank Edgley]

the biggest thing that can only be done on the anglo is get lessons from just about anywhere. there are two good anglo teachers near you in the bay area, for example (if you really are in berkely), but i can't think of a good irish teacher for english anywhere in your time zone. traditionally irish music is played on the anglo, so you can of course play it on the english but you will have very little resources and people to draw from.

 

in case anyone wants to accuse me of being biased, i do know what it is like to play a non-traditional instrument in irish music. i play the silver flute, which is not very traditional. the problem is: how do you make a trad sound, do all the ornamentation, and how do you play the silver flute differently than in classical music. these are very challenging issues. luckily, i happen to be related to a

who helped me overcome all these hurdles. if you happen to already have an english concertina, or try an anglo and really can't stand it, then go ahead. take the path less travelled . otherwise, i would recommend trying out the well-trodden road to see if you like it, because you can meet a lot more friends along the way.

 

Good advice, David.

[Wolf Molkentin]

personally I find that daunting, whereas the push-pull of an anglo is fairly intuitive. But that's me, your response may be different.

I in turn found the push-pull intuitive as far as I played a 20k Anglo "along the rows"; just like my (F)/C/G or Bb/F - melodeons, but when expanding to the additional accidentals or keys other than the home keys the whole thing came out quite strange for me.

 

The EC was - and still is - a glorious discovery then...

[d.elliott]

No! I've heard Dave Townsend play morris tunes on EC and could have sworn he was playing anglo.

 

The EC will probably let you play in more keys, so unless your singing voice matches the home keys of an anglo you may find the EC better for accompanying shanties. The purists will tell you that only the anglo can play Irish music, but that's a bit of a circular argument - because the Irish tradition is based on anglo then they claim that only the anglo can play it properly. Irish music on EC may not sound quite the same as on anglo, but that's not to say it can't be done, even less that it shouldn't be.

 

However don't assume the English system is less daunting to play. Although the notes are the same both ways, the scale alternates between left and right hands - personally I find that daunting, whereas the push-pull of an anglo is fairly intuitive. But that's me, your response may be different. It's difficult to know which will suit you better until you try. If you play from sheet music and think in terms of musical theory then you may find the English more suitable, whereas if you play by ear and instinct the anglo may be your choice, but there will be plenty of people on here who will tell you the reverse is also true! And that's without considering duets...

 

It's not an easy choice. You can narrow it down based on logical analysis but at the end of the day it depends on how your brain works. Some can't cope with push-pull, some can't cope with left-right. Some can manage both, which is a total mystery to me.

 

As Traditional Irish music often pre-dates any concertina I have often thought that this 'purist' view that Irish must be played on an Anglo is a load of tosh. Surely it is about what suits the player and how they develop their playing style to suit the music which is to be played. One has to remember that Irish, like other traditions, is not all fast and furious didly didly jig stuff, there are also those glorious slow airs that are probably more suited to the English or Duet.. I have always asked the question: 'What do you wish to play, fast and rhythmic, or more melodic?'

 

Dave E

[Anglo Enthusiast]

I play an anglo system and love it. Once you learn to navigate the constant back-and-forth dance of inhabiting both realms (the note layout on the in/open vs out/close) simultaneaously, interweaving them or deliberately contrasting them, depending on what suits the particular occasion best, there is a whole world of harmonic and phrasing possibilities at your disposal (I find this to be true even when playing in keys that might be considered esoteric).

 

Having said that, I appreciate Dave E's comments and share his conviction that whether the particular system you are considering is widely associated with any particular genre (in this case Irish traditional music)or not shouldn't be one's guiding principle. I've heard Irish music performed by English Concertina players such as Mark Gilston or Rachel Hall of the SIMPLE GIFTS ensemble, and find it to be a most welcome breath of fresh air. It's ironic, but the fact that the anglo system is so deeply ingrained in Irish music can actually become a liability, as the focus shifts from the music to the instrument itself-rather like putting the cart before the horse, or mistaking the means for the end. Bertram Levy once remarked that the aim of a musician is to play MUSIC, not the INSTRUMENT. Whether one is approaching traditional Irish music from the perspective of an anglo, English, or Duet system, the character or spirit of the music should dictate one's style. Otherwise, one will almost invariably resort to recycling a host of stale, predictable, uninspired cliches.

 

One final note, if you are leaning towards the English system, you should be aware that Alistair Anderson, a master of that system, has just put out an instructional DVD which I've seen on the Button Box website, though probably it is available elsewhere as well.

 

Andy.

[Anglo Enthusiast]

I hasten to add that I do differ (respectfully, of course) with Dave on one small but important point: Idon't think "fast and rhythmic" and "more melodic" need be mutually exclusive propositions.

 

Andy.

[Jeff Benefiel]

No! I've heard Dave Townsend play morris tunes on EC and could have sworn he was playing anglo.

 

The EC will probably let you play in more keys, so unless your singing voice matches the home keys of an anglo you may find the EC better for accompanying shanties. The purists will tell you that only the anglo can play Irish music, but that's a bit of a circular argument - because the Irish tradition is based on anglo then they claim that only the anglo can play it properly. Irish music on EC may not sound quite the same as on anglo, but that's not to say it can't be done, even less that it shouldn't be.

 

However don't assume the English system is less daunting to play. Although the notes are the same both ways, the scale alternates between left and right hands - personally I find that daunting, whereas the push-pull of an anglo is fairly intuitive. But that's me, your response may be different. It's difficult to know which will suit you better until you try. If you play from sheet music and think in terms of musical theory then you may find the English more suitable, whereas if you play by ear and instinct the anglo may be your choice, but there will be plenty of people on here who will tell you the reverse is also true! And that's without considering duets...

 

It's not an easy choice. You can narrow it down based on logical analysis but at the end of the day it depends on how your brain works. Some can't cope with push-pull, some can't cope with left-right. Some can manage both, which is a total mystery to me.

 

As Traditional Irish music often pre-dates any concertina I have often thought that this 'purist' view that Irish must be played on an Anglo is a load of tosh. Surely it is about what suits the player and how they develop their playing style to suit the music which is to be played. One has to remember that Irish, like other traditions, is not all fast and furious didly didly jig stuff, there are also those glorious slow airs that are probably more suited to the English or Duet.. I have always asked the question: 'What do you wish to play, fast and rhythmic, or more melodic?'

 

Dave E

I have found that the Irish, as well as the Cajuns, bought the absolutely cheapest instruments because they were dirt poor. At least, from my research, the Cajuns were buying cheap German or American accordions that they patched back together every now and then (imagine trying to keep one of those Chinese Hohner knock offs running for several years). This may be why the Anglo tradition has become second nature to Irish music players, the Germans were undercutting the English instrument makers. Someday when I'm flush I'll get an Anglo too, but for now I think I'll see how far the EC takes me. In the end, if it makes me happy and brings a bright spot to others, I'm good. Thanks to ALL for their experience and advice, this is a wonderful board and resource keeping alive an instrument that nearly headed to the past pluperfect tense.

[Woodsman]

I play an anglo system and love it. Once you learn to navigate the constant back-and-forth dance of inhabiting both realms (the note layout on the in/open vs out/close) simultaneaously, interweaving them or deliberately contrasting them, depending on what suits the particular occasion best, there is a whole world of harmonic and phrasing possibilities at your disposal (I find this to be true even when playing in keys that might be considered esoteric).

 

Having said that, I appreciate Dave E's comments and share his conviction that whether the particular system you are considering is widely associated with any particular genre (in this case Irish traditional music)or not shouldn't be one's guiding principle. I've heard Irish music performed by English Concertina players such as Mark Gilston or Rachel Hall of the SIMPLE GIFTS ensemble, and find it to be a most welcome breath of fresh air. It's ironic, but the fact that the anglo system is so deeply ingrained in Irish music can actually become a liability, as the focus shifts from the music to the instrument itself-rather like putting the cart before the horse, or mistaking the means for the end. Bertram Levy once remarked that the aim of a musician is to play MUSIC, not the INSTRUMENT. Whether one is approaching traditional Irish music from the perspective of an anglo, English, or Duet system, the character or spirit of the music should dictate one's style. Otherwise, one will almost invariably resort to recycling a host of stale, predictable, uninspired cliches.

 

One final note, if you are leaning towards the English system, you should be aware that Alistair Anderson, a master of that system, has just put out an instructional DVD which I've seen on the Button Box website, though probably it is available elsewhere as well.

 

Andy.

 

Hi, I'm new to this discussion board (it's great!) and I haven't yet played on a concertina. I have been playing accordion for more years than I care to admit. As another person mentioned, I can imagine playing the push-pull (but I can't really do it). But I have seen players who switch back and forth--the brain process for that is something I can't fathom.

 

About a month ago I went to a performance of Finest Kind, a group from my hometown (http://www.finestkind.ca/index.htm); Ian Robb was playing English Concertina, which I knew nothing about. I thought all concertinas were push-pull but I could see he was playing the same note in and out. So I have decided (in my 70s) to "master" the English Concertina (joke).

 

A question about this topic of fingering choices--I believe different English Concertinas have different button arrangements. For example, will there be serious differences in button layout, say, between a Lachenal 48 button and a Stagi 48 button, etc?

[Wolf Molkentin]

will there be serious differences in button layout, say, between a Lachenal 48 button and a Stagi 48 button, etc?

No, there won't be any!

(unless someone has swapped one reed or two...)

[Wolf Molkentin]

(unintended iteration deleted)

Edited September 12, 2012 by blue eyed sailor

[Don Taylor]

will there be serious differences in button layout, say, between a Lachenal 48 button and a Stagi 48 button, etc?

No, there won't be any!

(unless someone has swapped one reed or two...)

Not with a new Stagi, but I believe that Stagi did make some unusual key layouts in the past. I think that StephenTx recently sold such an instrument.

 

BTW. I was at the same Finest Kind concert wondering how Ian Robb manages to play without apparantly moving his bellows. He plays a tenor-treble and does not appear to use the 'bat' notes very much.

 

Don.

[Anglo-Irishman]

As another person mentioned, I can imagine playing the push-pull (but I can't really do it). But I have seen players who switch back and forth--the brain process for that is something I can't fathom.

 

Woodsman,

As a mulit-instrumentalist and former IT system developer, I see it this way ...

 

Regard the human brain as a computer that has a software application for each important function, like speech, mathematics and, of course, music. All the tunes you know, and all the musical theory you know, like what notes are in what scale, or what chords go with what keys, and when, are stored in your music application's "files", somewhere in the back of your head.

 

When it comes to output, each application has its external devices: the pen or keyboard for writing, the pocket calculator for doing maths, etc. Each of these needs a driver routine, so that you can write down what you're thinking, just as the computer prints out what it's "thnking."

 

Our brain's music application supports a wide range of output devices: pianos, guitars, banjos, mandolins, clarinets, flutes, oboes, and of course concertinas with many different button arrangements.

When you buy a new printer for your PC, you have to load the matching driver, which converts the computer's internal representation of the text or images into signals that are meaningful to this particular printer. When you take up an instrument, by analogy, the first thing you do is to "load the driver routine" for that instrument (AKA learning the instrument). However musically minded you may be, you cannot output music until you have programmed the driver routine for your instrument of choice.

 

If you add a second, different printer to your PC, you have to install a second driver for it. Similarly, taking up a new instrument means "loading a new driver" before you can output music to it. I've done this several times, and have found that my brain "detects" what instrument I'm holding at the moment, and loads the appropriate driver for it. So when my brain's musical application decides to output a C-major chord, for instance, the currently loaded instrument driver translates this to finger movements that produce the desired chord on that instrument - needless to say, these finger movements are different, even for instruments as superficially similar as banjo and guitar, or Anglo and Crane duet. But my "detection routine" can easily distinguish between the wide neck of the guitar and the narrow neck of the banjo, along with their shape and weight, and between the three 5-button rows of the Anglo and the more numerous 6-button rows of the Crane. The English concertina, with its thumb-straps and 4 columns of buttons, should be even easier to detect (though I've never tried it).

 

Note that how the melody of a song goes, and what chords are best to accompany it, are functions of the brain's main music application. That means that once a multi-instrumentalist has a piece in his head, he can output (play) it on any of his instruments - the instrument driver converts the abstract music to concrete finger movements that produce the desired sounds.

 

I don't know whether this makes instrument-swapping sound any simpler - but at least it shows that there's no magic or mystery about it.

Of course, some people regard computers as magical and mysterious ...

 

Cheers,

John

[michael sam wild]

Great explanatuion John , but would 't'were so easy on a Jeffries Duet after an Anglo ;)I wonder whether sight readers would make the switch more readily as it might cut out a step. In the long run ear players might progress faster with new tunes. A fascinating controlled experiment ?

Edited September 13, 2012 by michael sam wild

[hjcjones]

In my mind, learning to play the instrument and learning tunes are separate processes. Once I've learned a tune and got it in my head I can then play it on any of my instruments. The exception being phrases which fall outside the usual run of playing (eg unusual accidentals) which I might have to specifically learn for individual instruments. Occasionally this will mean that I'll launch into a tune, only to realise as I approach one of these tricky phrases that I usually play it on a different instrument, and probably in a different key, and haven't worked out the fingering for the one I'm actually playing.

 

I have no problem switching between my different anglos even though they all have slightly different keyboard layouts. However I can't play an English without wanting to pump the bellows. I can switch between different guitar tunings without difficulty but having learned recorder as a child I've never been able to play tin whistle - the fingerings are too similar for me to distinguish between them, but too different for me to play!

[Anglo-Irishman]

Great explanatuion John , but would 't'were so easy on a Jeffries Duet after an Anglo ;)I wonder whether sight readers would make the switch more readily as it might cut out a step. In the long run ear players might progress faster with new tunes. A fascinating controlled experiment ?

 

Mike,

The PC device driver is only an analogy for the basic view of things. One difference in detail is that you can install a driver on the PC in a few minutes - just download a zip file, run the install exec, and the device can do anything that it's designed for - whereas "programming your instrument driver" takes a lot of learning, practice and experience before all the instrument's capabilities become available to you. Perhaps I should have stressed that you can't just download a human "instrument driver" and use it immediately. It's more like a program development process, or like "teaching" a robot (which entails going through all the desired movements manually that the robot will later make automatically and much more quickly). The instrument you've been playing for years will always have a more complete "instrument driver" installed in your brain than one that you've just started learning!

 

As to sight-readers vs. ear-players, I wouldn't think there'd be a difference. The dots on the page and the notes in your head are both on a very abstract musical level, and how you realise them on a concrete, muscular level differs from instrument to instrument. Whether I'm looking for "the tonic of the key of C" or "the note on the ledger line below the treble stave," I need the instrument driver to get my finger there! I suppose the completely programmed instrument driver accepts both ear and dot input! (My personal instrument drivers are all freeware versions that have the dot-input feature disabled! )

 

Cheers,

John

[Jeff Benefiel]

Argg. Got my new Jackie today. Muscle memory is a bugger. The tutor for this concertina starts pretty much at the lower end of the register where my fingers are hooked over pointing strait at the keys. Already making mistakes with only four notes to learn, but I shall prevail. Just like when I started to learn to play billiards, the road to success begins with 1000 failed attempts