EmzillaStomp Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Hi all I'm new to the world of concertinas. This site has been a huge resource, so thank you all! I was planning on getting a vintage concertina. But, I've never bought an instrument of any kind before and I'm not sure what to do. For example, if I get a vintage concertina from one of the big sellers, would I be expected to haggle? If I am expected to haggle, does anyone have any tips on that? Anything else to know about buying concertinas? I am planning to go through the button box, barleycorn concertinas, or similar so that don't accidentally get a "lemon" (probably not the right term for this situation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 In my world the only time I wouldn't haggle over any item of substantial price (car, frig', concertina...whatever) even if it was just 'Can I have a discount for cash?' would be when you and the seller knows the price offered is an absolute gift. Then trying to chisel any further would insult the seller's intelligence. I don't think this situation will apply with the firms you mention so I'd try and wheedle a bit off somewhere, and I'm sure they would try not to let on that this was a possibility, at that, so don't be put off. Asking a discount for cash is not stupid; if they'll take your credit card then they pay a percentage to the card company so can afford to split that margin with you, and that's ignoring the possibility for cash to magically avoid being declared to their tax man at all. I bought my first concertina from a company in England called Hobgoblin and found a couple of other unused instruments which I traded in; that's one to think about too. A good general horsetrading trick in a shop with several similar items is to change target; get near a price on one then get all dismayed and decide you want a better one, or cheaper, when you've got that to a standstill go back to the first one, the one you really want, and see if the price moves a bit more. When you've virtually closed the deal is the time to say "And you will sort those straps (or whatever else you think is a bit tired) for me in the deal, will you?" Remember they are unlikely to refuse to take your money because they think you are a bit cheeky, and everyone is happy with a really good deal. Good luck! (Concertinas are pretty tough and fairly repairable.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Good advice from Dirge. Speaking form the other side as one who sells concertinas, I'm generally quite happy to haggle, once I understand that the buyer is serious. The one thing I really don't like is the person who I've never had contact with who just sends an email out of the blue saying "what is your best price for instrument X" That is more than cheeky, and my response is usually to confirm that the advertised price is firm. The only exception would be if the instrument had been on offer for ages and there had been no interest. As Dirge says there is often scope for adding extras like straps, or even a case, or for making small modifications such as changing the odd note to your preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian brown Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 It might be worth considering your future relationship with the vendor. If you are likely to rely on him/her for future repairs, it could be false economy to haggle over the price - if you’ve been a pain to deal with, they are likely to be less amenable in helping you out of a fix. I obviously cannot speak for them myself, but I can’t imagine one of the top makers enjoying having to haggle a price with a customer, and you might find them simply offering their instrument to somebody else. Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmzillaStomp Posted June 8, 2012 Author Share Posted June 8, 2012 Thanks for the tips guys. I've never had to haggle before so hopefully I somehow manage this without being or rude in anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Thanks for the tips guys. I've never had to haggle before so hopefully I somehow manage this without being or rude in anyway! Treat it as a not to serious game, something that makes the sale a social interaction. To see haggling at it's best watch a few episodes of Salvage Hunters on Quest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 It might be worth considering your future relationship with the vendor. If you are likely to rely on him/her for future repairs, it could be false economy to haggle over the price - if you’ve been a pain to deal with, they are likely to be less amenable in helping you out of a fix. I obviously cannot speak for them myself, but I can’t imagine one of the top makers enjoying having to haggle a price with a customer, and you might find them simply offering their instrument to somebody else. Adrian Yes exactly Adrian, I feel sure that both you and I would not haggle with our customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 It might be worth considering your future relationship with the vendor. If you are likely to rely on him/her for future repairs, it could be false economy to haggle over the price - if you’ve been a pain to deal with, they are likely to be less amenable in helping you out of a fix. I obviously cannot speak for them myself, but I can’t imagine one of the top makers enjoying having to haggle a price with a customer, and you might find them simply offering their instrument to somebody else. In some contexts, haggling -- or bargaining, or whatever you like to call it -- is expected; in others it's not. At a tag sale (garage sale, boot sale, flea market), yes. In a department store, supermarket, or other establishment where the salesperson is not the owner, definitely not. (I was surprised to learn that the first use of pre-marked, fixed prices in a major US store was supposedly during Abraham Lincoln's term as president. It hadn't occurred to me that it was such a recent "innovation".) The sale of a single concertina between two individuals not "in the business" might well be considered to be in the first category, but... While some might think that one-man (or -woman) shops selling musical instruments, either dealers or makers, might also be of the first type, I wouldn't. Oh, some dealers/makers might consider it an enjoyable game to haggle over a percent or two in price (hi there, Theo ), but I would view trying to get any substantial reduction to be an insult to the seller, essentially an accusation that (s)he has seriously overvalued the instrument, either through incompetence or in order to take advantage of the naive buyer. Of course, it's not quite all that black and white. Nothing wrong with saying that you disagree about a valuation and making an offer, but don't expect the other party to accept your offer, compromise, or even move a smidgen. If an instrument sits unsold for several months, the seller might indeed give you a call, but true professionals don't overprice an instrument just so they can be bargained down to what they think it's really worth. And of course, they also have bills to pay. As for new handstraps or changing a note or two, I'll have to remember that next time I talk to Theo , but even then I would ask about the possibility and let him decide whether to offer not charging me for the work, even though he's indicated here that he himself may enjoy a wee bit of haggling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spindizzy Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 It might be worth considering your future relationship with the vendor. If you are likely to rely on him/her for future repairs, it could be false economy to haggle over the price - if you've been a pain to deal with, they are likely to be less amenable in helping you out of a fix. I obviously cannot speak for them myself, but I can't imagine one of the top makers enjoying having to haggle a price with a customer, and you might find them simply offering their instrument to somebody else. In some contexts, haggling -- or bargaining, or whatever you like to call it -- is expected; in others it's not. At a tag sale (garage sale, boot sale, flea market), yes. In a department store, supermarket, or other establishment where the salesperson is not the owner, definitely not. (I was surprised to learn that the first use of pre-marked, fixed prices in a major US store was supposedly during Abraham Lincoln's term as president. It hadn't occurred to me that it was such a recent "innovation".) The sale of a single concertina between two individuals not "in the business" might well be considered to be in the first category, but... While some might think that one-man (or -woman) shops selling musical instruments, either dealers or makers, might also be of the first type, I wouldn't. Oh, some dealers/makers might consider it an enjoyable game to haggle over a percent or two in price (hi there, Theo ), but I would view trying to get any substantial reduction to be an insult to the seller, essentially an accusation that (s)he has seriously overvalued the instrument, either through incompetence or in order to take advantage of the naive buyer. Of course, it's not quite all that black and white. Nothing wrong with saying that you disagree about a valuation and making an offer, but don't expect the other party to accept your offer, compromise, or even move a smidgen. If an instrument sits unsold for several months, the seller might indeed give you a call, but true professionals don't overprice an instrument just so they can be bargained down to what they think it's really worth. And of course, they also have bills to pay. As for new handstraps or changing a note or two, I'll have to remember that next time I talk to Theo , but even then I would ask about the possibility and let him decide whether to offer not charging me for the work, even though he's indicated here that he himself may enjoy a wee bit of haggling. Oh dear , maybe I'm too "british". It never occurred to me to haggle when I visited Barleycorn a while ago! OTOH I suspect that if I'd suggested that I had less money to spend, he'd have plopped another concertina in front of me that was marginally cheaper. I was happy with the trade-in price offered and happy with what I paid for the new one, so all well that ends well. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) Frankly if you don't ask you don't get, and if all you ever do is pay full price happily, well fine, and my basic comment above is fullfilled in that everyone gets a bargain in their own eyes. However if you get a little off the price more money in your pocket for beer. Yes, if you are stupid about it you will upset people but that only takes normal courtesy and sense to avoid. Particularly here we are talking s/h items of very variable type. The buy-in price could be anything, and there really is no absolute market value that everyone would agree on. We'd all be 'somewhere about' but that's it, so there are no fixed numbers in the equation. That has to be your touchstone when looking an expert in the eye and asking him to do something on the price. Theo and I seem to be on the same wavelength here. He said "Treat it as a not too serious game, something that makes the sale a social interaction." Couldn't have put it better myself. People get upset and entrenched if it gets too hard nosed. Get your wits in gear, wheel out the charm, have a little conversational probe and enjoy (nicely!) trying to ambush the seller. He will cope. Edited to add; I think I, and particularly Theo, should get Brownie points for the honest and open way we've answered this. Next time I buy or sell a concertina the other party is bound to be looking at my wolfish grin and wondering what I'm really thinking. Meanwhile Theo is certain to get some twerp in his shop demanding 20% off something 'because he said he'd do it on the internet.'...unselfish martyrs to self-sacrifice, both of us... Edited June 8, 2012 by Dirge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 ...if you get a little off the price more money in your pocket for beer. So an amount on the order of "I think we should discuss the price over a beer, and if you pay for the beer, I'll pay your price"? Yes, if you are stupid about it you will upset people but that only takes normal courtesy and sense to avoid. Aye, there's the rub. There are cultural differences. What you (and Theo?) seem to view as "normal" is not necessarily so to everyone, not even in the realms of "courtesy" and "sense". In my own case, haggling was a foreign (as in, what folks supposedly did in Far Eastern bazaars) concept until I was well into adulthood. I noted that the original poster found it necessary to ask about the custom, so I might expect that (s)he wouldn't know what haggling range would be "courteous" and "sensible". As with playing the concertina, it's a rare person who can comfortably "play" the haggler's role on a first attempt, and there's no "sheet music", only improvisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 n a department store, supermarket, or other establishment where the salesperson is not the owner, definitely not. I understand that is generally true, but there is one exception in the UK where it is very common to haggle over the sale of new cars, sales staff expect it, and so do canny buyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 ...if you get a little off the price more money in your pocket for beer. So an amount on the order of "I think we should discuss the price over a beer, and if you pay for the beer, I'll pay your price"? This is an elegant amicable extraction of a pint of beer from an otherwise intransigent seller. That is neatly done and I thank you for it and shall remember it. Somehow I feel you think you are poking fun, but it's a pint of beer as far as I'm concerned, and probably in interesting company. You start the drive home, Jim, with your full-price 'box. Me? I'm off for a pleasant pint and a chat with Chris Algar before I collect mine. What is your general point? Are you really saying never even try to negotiate on anything because it's not normal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 ...if you get a little off the price more money in your pocket for beer. So an amount on the order of "I think we should discuss the price over a beer, and if you pay for the beer, I'll pay your price"? This is an elegant amicable extraction of a pint of beer from an otherwise intransigent seller. That is neatly done and I thank you for it and shall remember it. Somehow I feel you think you are poking fun, but it's a pint of beer as far as I'm concerned, and probably in interesting company. You start the drive home, Jim, with your full-price 'box. Me? I'm off for a pleasant pint and a chat with Chris Algar before I collect mine. What is your general point? Are you really saying never even try to negotiate on anything because it's not normal? No. What I'm saying is that expectations are "culturally" dependent, and not knowing the local "language" can get one into trouble. In fact, it seems that you and I may have different understandings of the meaning of "haggle". To my understanding, it's not haggling unless the difference being negotiated is a significant fraction (5%? 10%? more?) of the price. I, too, will gladly share a pint and a chat with Chris A., but I would never consider it to be a component of the "price" of a box, nor something to be negotiated. No, that's not something we haggle over, but something we do because we share some common interest. But back to my point that attitudes and customs differ -- even among cultures in or derived from Western Europe -- and that misunderstandings can cause problems. A serious example: tipping. In Denmark (where, interestingly, tips are called "drink money"), tipping is not expected, not even from foreigners. If you do tip a waiter or cabbie, an amount on the order of 1% is considered a compliment and 5% might be viewed with suspicion. When I lived in New York City, on the other hand, tipping of waiters and cabbies was expected, and a tip of less than 10% (I'm told the standard later rose to 15% or more) could be met with verbal or even physical abuse. Haggling? I think it's found in all cultures, but not expected or even accepted for every sort of transaction. I'm not saying that one should never attempt it, but that one should be careful. There are those who welcome it, but others who might be offended if you try, and certainly if you persist. With regard to the sale of musical instruments, I think we've already seen some of each in the posts here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 n a department store, supermarket, or other establishment where the salesperson is not the owner, definitely not. I understand that is generally true, but there is one exception in the UK where it is very common to haggle over the sale of new cars, sales staff expect it, and so do canny buyers. Ah, that's a horsepower of a different color. Those folks are (at least in the US) on commission, i.e., they get paid a fraction of what they sell the vehicle for (or perhaps a fraction of the amount above cost?). So their fraction of a lower price would still be more than getting nothing if the sale doesn't go through but the vehicle is then sold by a coworker. It's definitely a motivation for haggling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmzillaStomp Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 I would view trying to get any substantial reduction to be an insult to the seller, essentially an accusation that (s)he has seriously overvalued the instrument, either through incompetence or in order to take advantage of the naive buyer. I just want to make clear that I do not think any sellers are incompetent or trying to take advantage. Just, in some situations, especially involving used items, haggling is expected. I wanted to know if vintage concertinas is a situation where haggling is expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I would view trying to get any substantial reduction to be an insult to the seller, essentially an accusation that (s)he has seriously overvalued the instrument, either through incompetence or in order to take advantage of the naive buyer. I just want to make clear that I do not think any sellers are incompetent or trying to take advantage. Just, in some situations, especially involving used items, haggling is expected. I wanted to know if vintage concertinas is a situation where haggling is expected. I think the various answers in this thread support my view that it's not a "one size fits all" situation. It depends on the individual you're dealing with. Still, I don't think it's drawing back from what I've already said to suggest that a friendly "Is that negotiable?" shouldn't offend any serious seller (or buyer), as long as you're willing to gracefully accept "no" as a possible answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I think the various answers in this thread support my view that it's not a "one size fits all" situation. It depends on the individual you're dealing with. Still, I don't think it's drawing back from what I've already said to suggest that a friendly "Is that negotiable?" shouldn't offend any serious seller (or buyer), as long as you're willing to gracefully accept "no" as a possible answer. I'm glad we've all proved you right, Jim, and I'd just like to thank you for explaining it too. I might not have understood otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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