Anglo keys

[Chris_L]

I'm new here and pretty much a beginner to the Anglo so forgive me if this sounds like a really dumb question! I'm not ready to buy a three row instrument yet so I'm playing a 2 row Lachenal C/G which is great for simple modal tunes or major tunes in the home keys but very restricted otherwise. Before I commit to a more expensive instrument, I'm wondering if anyone has any experience of playing a 2 row Anglo that is not in the key relationship 1/5? (This possibility is not mentioned in the notes "If It's Not A C/G, What Is It?" by Ken Coles) I recently saw a Lachenal advertised for sale as a D/Bb. Perhaps this is an Eb/Bb that has been retuned? But on a purely conceptual level the choice of D/Bb seems to me far more flexible as it makes available 4 out of the 5 accidentals compared to only one on a C/G. Or am I missing the point?

[RP3]

Chris, I'm not a muscial expert, but I think your focus on the extra accidentals misses the fact that those keys won't give you all the naturals that for instance you get on a C/G concertina. A 30 button concertina gives you more note choices -- regardless of key combinations -- but then a 38 button concertina gives you even more options. If you are playing alone, it's not a problem, but if you want to play in a session, then you would probably need those naturals to play in G or D but wouldn't need those extra accidentals.

 

For concertina people who want the whole chromatic spectrum, there's the choice of English concertinas or duets. And button accordion folks solve the problem by having the two keys adjacent like B/C or C#/D. Of course, by having the concertina keys a fifth apart, you have great chord capabilities.

 

Sharing my own personal perspective, the key combinations below C/G offer sweeter tone -- if at the expense of sometimes slower reed response. A number of fine concertina players I know would much rather play instruments in these lower pitch combinations than C/G, but at least for Irish music, C/G is the preferred tuning for sessions. Some special sessions will be in C#/G#.

 

Now those are some of the easy answers, now our experts will jump in with the serious musical theory.

 

Ross Schlabach

[Kautilya]

I'm new here and pretty much a beginner to the Anglo so forgive me if this sounds like a really dumb question! I'm not ready to buy a three row instrument yet so I'm playing a 2 row Lachenal C/G which is great for simple modal tunes or major tunes in the home keys but very restricted otherwise. Before I commit to a more expensive instrument, I'm wondering if anyone has any experience of playing a 2 row Anglo that is not in the key relationship 1/5? (This possibility is not mentioned in the notes "If It's Not A C/G, What Is It?" by Ken Coles) I recently saw a Lachenal advertised for sale as a D/Bb. Perhaps this is an Eb/Bb that has been retuned? But on a purely conceptual level the choice of D/Bb seems to me far more flexible as it makes available 4 out of the 5 accidentals compared to only one on a C/G. Or am I missing the point?

I wouldn't know from Adam as this is all Greek and Ly®es to me, but it would be well worth your while coming along to the session at The George Inn (this coming Monday night, April 2 starting at 2000) and having a word with some of the Greeks such as Chris Drinkwater who is expecting to be there with his various multi-button English etc boxes and he will have some good tips for you.

There will also be a multi button player dropping by from the USofA --

 

AND it would be lovely for you to join in and you will be able to see how far your 20b Lachenal can fit in with all the toons and a variety of all types of wind and string instruments around the room. Join in anytime you can or fancy. There is no "you're next" type of stuff - anyone can sti shtum, chord along or start a tune when there is a pause (dominant French, plus a variety of English, Scottish, Welsh, Sveedish, Japanese, Irish Gaelic etc etc)

Usually in the first room on the right downstairs, unless we have been pushed upstairs).

If u are shy about saying hello your Lachenal will be spotted anyway!

 

"Our" room door is on right next to the plant pot!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_George_Inn,_Southwark

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14038&pid=134823&st=0entry134823

Just 100 yards south of London Bridge Bus Station tube and mainline

Edited March 31, 2012 by Kautilya

[JimLucas]

...I'm wondering if anyone has any experience of playing a 2 row Anglo that is not in the key relationship 1/5? ... I recently saw a Lachenal advertised for sale as a D/Bb. Perhaps this is an Eb/Bb that has been retuned? But on a purely conceptual level the choice of D/Bb seems to me far more flexible as it makes available 4 out of the 5 accidentals compared to only one on a C/G.

An interesting concept, though I've never before heard of such an arrangement.

 

Chris, I'm not a muscial expert, but I think your focus on the extra accidentals misses the fact that those keys won't give you all the naturals that for instance you get on a C/G concertina.

Not so, Ross. The D scale will have the naturals A, B, D, E, and G. The Bb scale will have A, C, D, F, and G. Between them they have all of A through G, with A, D, and G duplicated. So let's look more broadly at how that might be used.

 

There are two possibilities for the relationship between the Bb and D rows, since the Bb row could be either higher in pitch than the D row (likely if a 20-button D/A had its A row tuned up to Bb) or lower (an Ab/Eb with the Eb row tuned down to D and the Ab row tuned up to Bb?). (Of course, either variant could have been built that way in the beginning.)

 

I just started analyzing the possibilities, and it looks interesting, though it'll take more time than I have right now to do it justice. Nevertheless, here are a few observations regarding the Bb-lower-than-D configuration:

• Of course, the fingering won't be anything like on a 30-button C/G, but for just melody playing, it should be useful. Assuming that the D row is one tone higher and the Bb row one tone lower than the C row on a standard C/G, you can play in each of the major keys (and relative modes) of Bb, F, C, G, and D, over a substantial range, though missing the low G "of the fiddle".
  
• Melodies in some of the unusual "modes" of Balkan or Klezmer music are also accessible.
  
• But those notes found on more than one button (D, G, A) repeat in the same direction, rather than being available on both push and pull. (The repeated fifth in the bass is an exception.)
  
• The selection of chords available could be used to provide some interesting harmonies, but won't give the full 3-chord trick in any key. There is at least one inversion each of Bb, C, Cm, D, Dm, F, A, Am, and A7.
  

Hmm. If the D/Bb for sale is D-under-Bb, then I should have analyzed that. Maybe later. But the results should be similar, except for the range where there are no "gaps".

 

If you have such an instrument and enjoy exploring on your own, you might have fun using it, at least for playing melodies. But you'll be essentially on your own in deciding fingering patterns for tunes.

 

However, if you're thinking of converting an existing 1/5 instrument as a way of starting your adventure, you might want to consider D/Ab or Ab/D instead of D/Bb or Bb/D. The combination of D and Ab rows will give you full chromaticity (for melody playing) over a substantial range... more than 2 octaves for the D-below-Ab variant. More importantly (?), such a layout could be obtained from an existing instrument through retuning one of its rows by a half step: a D/A to D/Ab, a G/D to Ab/D, or an Ab/Eb to Ab/D. (Okay, a D-under-Bb could be just as easy.) Might be a fun project to take a German or Italian D/A (much easier to find than a D/A Lachenal or Wheatstone, I believe) and convert it to D/Ab to see what it's like to play such a system, before modifying a more expensive English-made instrument.

 

By the way, there have been various discussions in the past of hypothetical nonstandard layouts, though few have been built. The idea of something like the C/C# button accordion (or its relatives, C#/D, etc.) has come up repeatedly, but so far hasn't caught on. And some time ago member m3838 chose a different path/pattern for modifying a 20-button anglo into a chromatic instrument. Threads about that are here and (a very short thread) here. I seem to recall that he also posted one or more sound files, but I haven't yet rediscovered them.

[Brian McGee]

Chris,

 

I'm far from an expert -- in fact I'm really only just getting to the point that I can play with any facility at all. I'm learning to not play "up and down" the rows, but across -- meaning paying more attention to picking a button which is best suited to the phrasing of the piece without regard to where it happens to be. I'm beginning to see that on an anglo the question is really much bigger than "do I have all the notes I need?" It's also "do I have the notes WHERE I need them, and in the right direction?"

 

Just a simple example -- my concertina is in the Jeffries layout, while my instructors is in the Wheatstone layout. That means that I the G in the +1 octave in the accidental row -- is moved from the 2 to the 3 button. When playing with my instructor, I can see that's SO handy to have when we're playing in G, because it's easier to play runs between the F# and upper B.

 

It's purely happenstance that my layout is Jeffries -- I didn't know enough to pick between them when I bought my concertina. It turns out I was lucky -- I like this layout better.

 

Anyway, I'm getting long-winded. My point is that your first 30 button probably won't be your last -- so it might be best to pick something standard and play it a while to get a better personal understanding of the system. C/G weren't picked at random, I think.

 

Besides it gives you an excuse to get another concertina later!

 

B

[Anglo-Irishman]

But on a purely conceptual level the choice of D/Bb seems to me far more flexible as it makes available 4 out of the 5 accidentals compared to only one on a C/G. Or am I missing the point?

 

To my mind, the point of the 20-button Anglo-German concertina layout is not to provide as many accidentals as possible, but to provide easy harmonies in its home keys.

Instruments are developed with a particular type of music in mind, and the button arrangement (which is the "German" feature of the Anglo-German concertina) was developed for popular music that harmonises easily with the I-IV-V7 chords (tonic, subdominant and dominant seventh). This embraces most German folk-tunes, but also many other Western European and North American tunes.

 

However, quite a few popular tunes from these regions modulate - i.e. they change key for a short phase somewhere in the middle. So you have to be able to harmonise comfortably/instinctively in this key as well.

The vast majority of modulating tunes shift from the tonic to the dominant - e.g. from C major to G major. Examples are "The Ash Grove" or the Scottish psalm tune "Crimond" (usually sung to Psalm 23, "The Lord's my shepherd..."). A German example is "Aennchen von Tharau".

A few tunes shift from the tonic to the subdominant - e.g. from G to C.

But the point is that they all modulate up or down a fifth. Hence the interval of a fifth between the two rows of the Anglo. Harmonising the modulated part of the tune is just as instinctive and simple as harmonising the main part.

 

By the way, the autoharp is another 19th-century German invention aimed at providing simple I-IV-V7 harmonies for popular songs. The earliest models were in one key, but the first American development was to add one additional string, which opened up a second key - and this is the key a fifth higher! So the old 2-key autoharps are in F/C, which is also a feasible Anglo tuning. As the autoharp developed further, having more and more keys added, these followed the Circle of Fifths. My modern autoharp plays in the keys of F, C, G, D and A. As you can see, the Anglo's C/G and G/D are within that series.

 

An interesting point is that the German-American Charles Zimmermann, who started expanding the autoharp along the Circle of Fifths, also did important work in the development of notation for diatonic accordions!

 

Cheers,

John

[Chris_L]

Thanks guys, I'm overwhelmed by the response- I'm happy to see that other people think this issue worth discussing, and I can see that there are a number of possibilities other than the one I mentioned- which just came up at an affordable price. Jim, your suggestions are illuminating. It's interesting that nobody seems to have tried the C/C# option as this is a common system for Melodeon. And I can see that C/G# or the equivalent could work. But life is short. I can see why an experienced player would think twice about re-learning all his fingering patterns to try a new arrangement- but for a beginner it is an intriguing possibility.

I must admit I find the idea of retuning a concertina fairly daunting so I haven't considered working through these possibilities except in my head. I saw a digital concertina on Youtube recently- perhaps that could be programmed to try out the different layouts before committing to a retune? And yes I see the point about the cycle of Forths, and having those alternate naturals. I take your point, Brian, about playing across the rows, bellows direction etc- but there is also a loss of simplicity because the two keys will be fingered differently- my starting point was to treat the box as two "harmonicas" which of course facilitates transposition.

I didn't explain that my interest here is two-fold; to play tunes (which means playing in D and G for sessions) and for singing (which means having access to several keys to match the range of my voice). So I'm looking to access keys like C, D, F, G and Bb! How easy is it to play in D, say, on a three row C/G? It seems odd to me that C/G is the prefered option for sessions and not G/D- is this just a historical accident?

And thanks for the invitation Kautilya, I will try to get along tomorrow. And yes, I will be the one (not) playing the 2 row Lachenal.

[Kautilya]

Thanks guys, I'm

And thanks for the invitation Kautilya, I will try to get along tomorrow. And yes, I will be the one (not) playing the 2 row Lachenal.

You must bring yr box even if u do not play (ho hum, you won't be able to resist joining in...) or you will be forced to sit with your back to the fire for a standard roasting for dissenters. This is cheaper and easier for us than dragging u over the Bridge for branding and racking in The Bloody Tower.

 

Our US visitor David Barnert made it to the The Horseshoe Inn today, Sunday, and seemed to enjoy it and joined in and led a few, and is looking forward to The George tomorrow.

Not been to the Horseshoe before and almost continuous tooningfrom 1200 to 1630, with fiddles, tinas (English, Edeophone, Wheatstone Duet, 20-button Lachenal, accordion, recorders, harmonicas, step dancing mini-men walking the plank, melodeons, guitars, mandolins, whistles and a triangle...

Lemonade 2.80 per pint, beer 3.25 and the momos (beef dumplings) from the Mongolian chef in the kitchen looked good for 5.95 (for 7 dumplings)...

 

ps access from Borough St over London Bridge was blocked today by roadworks - mayhem.

[Brian McGee]

How easy is it to play in D, say, on a three row C/G?

 

D is the third most played key, I think, for the tunes that I've seen. F#s are always a pain on a 30 button, because they're ONLY available pulled. On the Jeffries layout, the C#/D# are available in both directions in the +1 octave -- not on the Wheatstone layout, however.

 

It's more of a challenge, obviously. And in my experience you end up playing many phrases on the pull, so it requires more use of the air button. Certainly not an issue for any even moderately skilled -- but still for me, alas

 

B

[Kautilya]

Thanks guys, I'm

And thanks for the invitation Kautilya, I will try to get along tomorrow. And yes, I will be the one (not) playing the 2 row Lachenal.

Our US visitor David Barnert made it to the The Horseshoe Inn today

ps access from Borough St over London Bridge was blocked today by roadworks - mayhem.

Go to Videos and recordings to hear some of the fun. (sound only)

or just click here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmunnlTJ0wQ

[Chris_L]

it would be well worth your while coming along to the session at The George Inn (this coming Monday night, April 2 starting at 2000) and having a word with some of the Greeks such as Chris Drinkwater

 

Did you mean Greeks or Geeks Kautilya? I don't speak any Greek.

[hjcjones]

Most novices start by thinking of the two rows as separate harmonicas, but this becomes unhelpful as your playing develops. It's better to learn to think of the keyboard as a whole unit. The advantage of the standard relationship is that most of the notes in the home keys are available in either direction, and left-hand chords are easily managed.

 

A lot will depend on the type of music you want to play, and the style you wish to play in. If you are playing just melody with no chord accompaniment you have more options, as you don't have to find matching chord notes in the same direction. However away from the home keys the pattern of the scales quickly loses any logic or consistency, and on a 20-button you may not have all the notes. I suspect this would apply to any non-standard layout as well.

 

If you want to play folk music from the British Isles, these days these are mostly played in the "fiddle keys" of G, D and A (historically this wasn't always the case). However the tunes are not very chromatic, so you won't need many accidentals outside these keys.

 

The "standard" anglo is C/G, but this wasn't designed with British folk music in mind. For Irish music, a style of playing has developed to play in the fiddle keys in a way which makes the best of the instrument's disadvantages, and could even be said to have turned them into strengths. For English music, which is usually played with chord accompaniment, many players choose G/D instruments. If you want to accompany songs I assume you will be playing chords. C, G, F and D are reasonably easy to play on a C/G, other keys less so (but skilled players can manage in some surprising keys).

 

I think you'd do better finding an instrument (or instruments) in the keys you will most use. If you want to play highly chromatic music or in a wide range of keys, then (unless you relish the challenge of playing in less usual keys) perhaps the anglo isn't the best choice and you might do better with a duet or English. A non-standard layout might give you the range of notes you require, but might limit your playing in other ways and you would be very much on your own when it comes to learning how to play. It would also be difficult to move up to a better instrument in time.

[Marien]

Chris,

 

There are much possible varieties in tuning a concertina.

 

My old wooden German square concertina-like bandoneon (3 row, 32 buttons) is the smallest size bandoneon, so I have been told by a bandoneon maker.

The two outer rows are basically a G/A concertina whereas a 20B anglo concertina would have G/D.

The 2 inner rows are comparable to a "normal" 20b E/A concertina. Those intervals are quite the same but there are some key deviations, check a bandoneon lay out and you will see the lowest three rows on the right hand side.

Those basic keys on my small box are still available on bandoneons with 144 buttons - as part of the key layout.

 

Marien

 

edited to add the following link:

 

Here is a link to the bandoneon key layout.

The part on the right below (3 rows) are the same as the layout of my right hand side, the rest of the buttons - well- I do not have them...

Edited April 2, 2012 by marien

[Chris_L]

I'm mainly interested in English music and I think that the G/D system is a recent innovation in my home territory of East Anglia at least. That aside though, the choice of G/D seems sensible for session music. All these comments are helpful but I'd still like to hear from somebody with experience of playing a 1/4 or 4/1 (C/E, D/Bb, etc). I've been poking around on here, and in a few minutes I found two players who play EC! (Geoff Wooff and spindizzy) so they might have something to add to this discussion if I can persuade them to contribute.

[spindizzy]

Sidetracked in another topic, Chris_L asked:

 

Hi Spindizzy. Did you say EC? I just started a topic (Anglo keys) which is about 2 row concertinas in key relationships other than 1/5. I'm wondering how you find playing an EC?

Chris,

ECs (and Duets) don't really have a problem with playing in different keys, (though In my case, the player does especially if someone throws 3 or 4 flats at me without prior warning)

An EC is arranged with all the whole notes in the 2 central (vertical ) columns, with the accidentals (piano black notes) arranged in the outer 2 columns.

So you can play in any key. Modal keys are fun, if you suddenly find that you need a C# instead of a C you just lean to the adjacent button (or a Bflat instead of a B, D sharp instead of D etc). The appropriate accidental is always just next to it's brother. The keys are arranged so that a scale is played alternating one hand then the other, which makes runs very fast to play. You get the same note on both push and pull so no need to worry about bellows direction (I really couldn't get my head round that on an anglo!)

All this means that the default style for an EC tends to be smooth and flowing , while the push/pull on anglos make them naturally bouncier. Of course you can play bouncy on an EC and smooth on an anglo but it takes more work :-)

Chris

[Johanna]

I think there's some confusion here. EC = English Concertina, not an Anglo concertina in the keys of E and C.

[spindizzy]

LOL - I hadn't realised that ChrisL might have muddled EC with E/C

[Chris_L]

My mistake sorry- guess i'm obsessed with Anglos at the moment and I have been chasing a chimera.

But if anybody wants to buy that Bb/D Anglo it's still for sale on Ebay!