ceemonster Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 a few weeks or a month or so ago, i read a post a propos of i don't remember what, where the poster said they were disappointed to learn that they could not have notes on their anglo removed and substituted with others because the reeds were different sizes and the concertina was "locked in" to the size that was there (the quotes are mine---i don't remember exactly what was said, but it was something like this.) the reed plates or pans or shoes or something. all i understood was that they could not do this in their concertina as it was. but can you do this when ordering a new one that's being made? if one wanted, could the buttons on the right-hand side that usually go to notes above "high C," be used for doubles of notes lower than "high c," that you only have in one direction but would like in the other? like the high F, and the high B-flat, and the G-sharp, and stuff like that? or is the concertina's design "locked in" and dependent on a size and dimension only allowing for those tiny reeds that usually go to the super-high notes, so that it can't be changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Well, I can't answer for all makers and models... but on my new Carroll Bb/F, I've had quite a few notes changed from the standard layout to reversed note, on the right side. For example, the push first button accidental RH is a high F# instead of Eb, and I think I got a reverse G# and Bb on the RH G row third and fourth button... they seemed to fit there even though the notes are lower than what they're supposed to be, but I'm sure it depends on the concertina's design and can't be applied to all. What's your next anglo??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAc Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 but can you do this when ordering a new one that's being made? if one wanted, could the buttons on the right-hand side that usually go to notes above "high C," be used for doubles of notes lower than "high c," that you only have in one direction but would like in the other? like the high F, and the high B-flat, and the G-sharp, and stuff like that? or is the concertina's design "locked in" and dependent on a size and dimension only allowing for those tiny reeds that usually go to the super-high notes, so that it can't be changed? shouldn't be a problem; you only need to find a maker who designs the reed pan to order. the only instance where I see it could become interesting if you want for example a very high note on push and a very low note on pull on the same button; but even then, it should just be a matter of pairing up a large and a small reed shoe hole in the same chamber (I wouldn't know about the subleties about air flow physics in such a situation, but intuitively I don't see show stopping issues here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share Posted July 5, 2011 very interesting, and thanks. no, i think i'd like to get rid of all notes higher than "high C." maybe keep the d,, but say good-bye to the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david fabre Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 ... it should just be a matter of pairing up a large and a small reed shoe hole in the same chamber (I wouldn't know about the subleties about air flow physics in such a situation, but intuitively I don't see show stopping issues here). The subtilty is that the volume of the chamber is dimensioned according to the notes of the reeds. On an anglo the matching is already imperfect since the two notes are not the same, but things remain good as long as they are not too far apart. More than two or three notes of gap should however be avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share Posted July 5, 2011 well, that is indeed a nuance to consider. i dunno....perhaps i am going to end up acquiring an EC that has all the notes i want rather than adding a 39-key anglo as a big brother to my 30, which is what i thought i was going to do.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 well, that is indeed a nuance to consider. i dunno....perhaps i am going to end up acquiring an EC that has all the notes i want rather than adding a 39-key anglo as a big brother to my 30, which is what i thought i was going to do.... Or you could get a duet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share Posted July 5, 2011 [Or you could get a duet...] they are fascinating, but i'm not sure they're optimal for fast, rapid-fire single-melody-line music. i did not until recently understand that ec can execute this type of music with brilliance, had thought all unisonoric concertinas were more slow chordal song accompaniment type instruments. but after some introductory research including listening and viewing, i see that EC is actually great for this kind of music. duet, not sure. i saw one poster saying they play tango/jazz/klezmer more on their duet and fast single-note melody style (what i'm looking for at present) more on their EC. the duet clips i've seen have not suggested it as being optimal for what i need at present. perhaps eventually one might like to explore both types, though..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) [Or you could get a duet...]they are fascinating, but i'm not sure they're optimal for fast, rapid-fire single-melody-line music. i did not until recently understand that ec can execute this type of music with brilliance, had thought all unisonoric concertinas were more slow chordal song accompaniment type instruments. but after some introductory research including listening and viewing, i see that EC is actually great for this kind of music. duet, not sure. i saw one poster saying they play tango/jazz/klezmer more on their duet and fast single-note melody style (what i'm looking for at present) more on their EC. the duet clips i've seen have not suggested it as being optimal for what i need at present. perhaps eventually one might like to explore both types, though..... If you're an anglo player considering such a radical departure as taking up the English, where it's not just particular fingerings that would be new, but basic mental patterns, then why not consider getting a 30-button G/D anglo? It will give you all the notes you're asking for and more. A higher proportion of the melody notes will be in the right hand than with the C/G, but would that be a problem? Then again, maybe that's your objection to duets? They are normally played with the melody entirely -- or at least as much as possible -- in the right hand, leaving the LH idle if you're playing only melody. But a duet doesn't have to be played that way. Aside from the possibility of playing many tunes in parallel octaves in the two hands, one could try to develop a style that makes maximum use of "alternate fingerings" available through the overlap of the ranges on the two ends. On a 55-button Crane duet that overlap is an entire chromatic octave. I have experimented with such a technique/style, and I find it presents interesting possibilities, including (e.g.) rapid repititions of a single note by alternating between the two buttons on opposite ends that produce that note. Or one can play in a style "like the English" by playing notes alternately on the two ends. I haven't fully developed that style, but I do intend to develop it further when I get some more time. Edited July 6, 2011 by JimLucas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Crabb Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) On a 55-button Crane duet that overlap is an entire chromatic octave and a half. Crabb standard 55 Button Crane, only one octave overlap. Geoff Edited to add Diagram Edited July 6, 2011 by Geoffrey Crabb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) [if you're an anglo player considering such a radical departure as taking up the English]....that's not the half of it. i'm an anglo player considering an ec with no pinky trough, no thumb thing, no wrist straps, and only hand straps, to be played seated like an anglo. like the gent you guys all know who made one, but ordering and having one made like this. and playing it with four fingers, of course. don't think i wo0uld go for this in my fantasy order, but the real way to do it would be a redesign with the same rows, but spread across and arced a bit, like the anglo rows, or the small bandoneons do. the unisonoric bandoneon rows imitate those of the bisonoric bandoneons in this manner. then the ec really MIGHT take over irish concertina playing the way people sometimes predict in those 12-page ec-vs-anglo threads.... Edited July 6, 2011 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 If you're an anglo player considering such a radical departure as taking up the English....that's not the half of it. i'm an anglo player considering an ec with no pinky trough, no thumb thing, no wrist straps, and only hand straps, to be played seated like an anglo. like the gent you guys all know who made one, but ordering and having one made like this. and playing it with four fingers, of course. don't think i wo0uld go for this in my fantasy order, but the real way to do it would be a redesign with the same rows, but spread across and arced a bit, like the anglo rows, or the small bandoneons do. the unisonoric bandoneon rows imitate those of the bisonoric bandoneons in this manner. then the ec really MIGHT take over irish concertina playing the way people sometimes predict in those 12-page ec-vs-anglo threads.... "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice... but not in practice." I look forward to hearing (both meanings) how you get on with this project of yours, but I won't hold my breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 On a 55-button Crane duet that overlap is an entire chromatic octave and a half. Crabb standard 55 Button Crane, only one octave overlap. OOPS! Geoff, you're absolutely right. Thanks for the correction. I have now corrected my original post. It's of course an octave of overlap also on two 55-button Lachenals (1 Edcophone, 1 New Model) I've owned and an octave plus one note on my 59-button Crane system by Jeffries. The 1½-octave overlap that addled its way into that earlier post you quoted is the overlap on my 80-button Maccann. My only excuse for the error is that I was extremely tired after several days of recapturing rogue sheep and building new fences to hold them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 i'm an anglo player considering an ec with no pinky trough, no thumb thing, no wrist straps, and only hand straps, to be played seated like an anglo. like the gent you guys all know who made one, but ordering and having one made like this. and playing it with four fingers, of course. Henrik's concertina also has a reduced range. A full 48-button English layout is "long" and "narrow", while anglo layours are comparatively "short" and "wide". With your hand constrained by an anglo-style handstrap, I think you might have trouble reaching all the notes of a full 48-button layout on your proposed "son-of-English". Sounds to me now as if the Linton system might be more appropriate to your needs. don't think i wo0uld go for this in my fantasy order, but the real way to do it would be a redesign with the same rows, but spread across and arced a bit, like the anglo rows, or the small bandoneons do. Hmm. How many and how great do the differences have to be before it's no longer appropriate to call it an "English"? (A matter of differing opinions, I'm sure.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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