Dating Jeffries by their ends?

[jdms]

Or were these ends in fact being used by C Jeffries senior, much earlier than 2010?

 

I think we can safely assume that

 

Ah Peter, but can we really? Or were you just being sarcastic?

 

Dick, because I'm that sort of person, I draw your attention to the italicized and emboldened (if that's the word) number above.

 

Joshua Mackay-Smith

 

I also offer my apologies if (a.) you were well aware of this and/or (b.) my comment does not strike you in the humorous vein in which I intended it...

[Ptarmigan]

Dick, because I'm that sort of person, I draw your attention to the italicized and emboldened (if that's the word) number above.

 

Joshua Mackay-Smith

 

I also offer my apologies if (a.) you were well aware of this and/or (b.) my comment does not strike you in the humorous vein in which I intended it...

 

Ooooops, sorry folks! ..... ah well, I've been off work & in bed all this week with a stinking chest cold!

 

... that's my excuse & I'm sticking to it!

 

Makes me wonder how many Concertinas have been made after 2010?

 

Now I'm off to repair the damage.

 

Cheers

Dick

[Ptarmigan]

A friend suggested I broaden this discussion out a little to include the Reeds.

 

So here are a couple of photos, which may or may not shed more light on the subject.

 

 

 

Cheers

Dick

[SteveS]

Jeffries certainly knew how to pack 'em in.

[wes williams]

I notice that the Button Box 45 button Jeffries is described as a C Jeffries, no doubt because like mine, that is what is stamped into the cartouche.

 

Now the end plates are more or less identical to mine.....

As Jim said above, much of what I wrote 10 years back was "thinking out loud" and we've moved on a bit since then. However, I did note that there seemed to be a noticable difference in the quality of the fret cutting between earlier (ie CJ snr) and later (Jeffries Bros), and I think I see this between Dick's box and the Button Box Jeffries. Couple this with the plain hammer stamp, rather than an engraved pattern, and the buttonbox instrument looks more like a CJ Jnr c.1920s to me. And we also need to consider this enigma when we start talking frets.

 

I've attached a file of various frame stamps I put together about 5 years back.

Bellows Frame Tooling Compared.pdf

[Ptarmigan]

... I did note that there seemed to be a noticable difference in the quality of the fret cutting between earlier (ie CJ snr) and later (Jeffries Bros), and I think I see this between Dick's box and the Button Box Jeffries. Couple this with the plain hammer stamp, rather than an engraved pattern, and the buttonbox instrument looks more like a CJ Jnr c.1920s to me.

 

I've attached a file of various frame stamps I put together about 5 years back.

 

Fascinating stuff Wes.

 

So, if my box was made by the brothers & was therefore made later than the Button Box, when are the brothers likely to have produced my box?

Are we talking late 20's or 30's or 40's? ... in fact, do we know when was the last Jeffries ever ... was produced?

..... please excuse my ignorance!

 

By the way, looking at your frame stamps, the one that seems to most closely resemble those on my own 45k C/G is:

 

C. Jeffries 26-Key; Wood Ends; Bone Buttons

or

Wes 38K Bb/F CJ stamp between buttons, no oval

 

Although, of course mine does have an oval.

 

Do these have any bearing on the age of the instrument?

 

Also, thinking of those end plates again, for ease of comparison, here's the link again to the Button Box 45k & here's a better photo of the end plate of my 45k.

 

 

Cheers

Dick

Edited February 16, 2011 by Ptarmigan

[wes williams]

So, if my box was made by the brothers & was therefore made later than the Button Box, when are the brothers likely to have produced my box?

Are we talking late 20's or 30's or 40's? ... in fact, do we know when was the last Jeffries ever ... was produced?

..... please excuse my ignorance!

Dick,

Don't worry about ignorance - its only by discussing these things that interesting points get raised. Current thinking is that the last Jeffries were produced by Charles Jnr, bearing an Aldershot Rd stamp, around mid to late 1920s. I'd suggest that both your 45K and the ButtonBox Jeffries were made by CJ Jnr, and on closer inspection, your fret cut, although a bit finer than the buttonbox CJ, could be attributed to the skill of the fret cutter, rather than any great age difference. But see my final question

 

Read Dave Lee's earlier post again, because it contains lots of useful points and new info - and if you haven't read it already, read the article written by Dave himself, and Chris Algar, Stephen Chambers, Robert Gaskins, Randall C. Merris, and me in The Concertina Library.

 

The bulk of Jefferies concertinas have four addresses associated with them. The earliest is White Lion Passage (1870 'ish), 102 Praed St (by 1879), 23 Praed St (1892 'ish) and 12 Aldershot Road. The last address is Charles Jnr's home address, and he was there by 1901. In terms of name stamps, there are four: CJ senior (~1870 - ~1908), Jeffries Bros. (~1908 - early 1920's?), CJ Jnr (? - mid/late 1920s?), W(illiam) Jeffries (1904+? since they are marked 38 Craven Park).

 

Jeffries Bros. came into being after the death of CJ Snr. in 1906, but as Dave points out, the two younger brothers (and there is quite an age gap - 13 years between Charles Jnr/William and George/Thomas) were in the drinks trade by 1911. After mother Mary Ann dies in 1919, things go a bit haywire, and we find the youngest brother Thomas signing receipts bearing a 23 Praed St address in 1922. Why and how? We do know that Thomas (and probably George) continued to dabble with concertinas until the 1950s from ICA records, although almost all the evidence points to dealing and repairs, rather than making.

 

Dave's final paragraph raises an interesting question:

About 2 years ago I bought a raised end duet for Charles jnr granddaughter made by him inscribed C.Jeffries Maker & Inventor 16 Aldershot Rd Kilburn NW6 which indicates a post WW1 instrument.

 

Did Charles Jnr sell duets under his own name - after all, they were his invention - while still producing anglos under the Jeffries Bros. name?

[Davelee]

Hi Dick & Wes

For your interest I'm enclosing a photo (trying to!!)of the ident on the Duet as mentioned in my last post.

 

Dave

[Ptarmigan]

Hi Dick & Wes

For your interest I'm enclosing a photo (trying to!!)of the ident on the Duet as mentioned in my last post.

 

Dave

 

Well, I must say Dave, that looks very clear & bold, compared to the lettering on mine.

 

Cheers

Dick

[wes williams]

Hi Dick & Wes

For your interest I'm enclosing a photo (trying to!!)of the ident on the Duet as mentioned in my last post.

 

Dave

 

Well, I must say Dave, that looks very clear & bold, compared to the lettering on mine.

 

Cheers

Dick

And to complete the mystery options, here's an engraved stamp from a 50 button. We know this instrument must be post 1892, but could this be CJ Snr period, or a CJ Jnr Duet sold under his own name at some later period when Jefferies Bros. were operating, but before he started producing them without address and cruder 'stamped' markings? Who knows! Elsewhere on site you'll find details about fairly crude CJ Jnr. Aldershot Road stamps where the letter 'N' has a reversed diagonal, so it looks like 'И'. A lot of these have some form of date hidden on them, usually under the palm rests, and generally circa 1926. So Dick, perhaps you can see why I'm suggesting that your big box, and the buttonbox one, could be CJ Jnr. And although we can categorise Jeffries instruments by name,address, stamp quality,fret pattern, etc... its very difficult to assign dates with any degree of certainty. So theories and suggestions are always welcome.

 

Edit to add: The stamp shown is from a box with the same kind of fret pattern as Dick's 45K above.

Edited February 19, 2011 by wes williams

[Ptarmigan]

And to complete the mystery options, here's an engraved stamp from a 50 button. We know this instrument must be post 1892,

Edit to add: The stamp shown is from a box with the same kind of fret pattern as Dick's 45K above.

 

Is it too simplistic to assume that the more primitive forms of stamp were attached to earlier instruments & the fancy, more clearly marked ones were attached to later instruments?

 

In other words, do you have any knowledge of ones with primitive markings, which have been accurately dated as later instruments, or ones with clear, name & address stamps which are known without doubt, to be earlier?

 

Cheers

Dick

[wes williams]

And to complete the mystery options, here's an engraved stamp from a 50 button. We know this instrument must be post 1892,

Edit to add: The stamp shown is from a box with the same kind of fret pattern as Dick's 45K above.

 

Is it too simplistic to assume that the more primitive forms of stamp were attached to earlier instruments & the fancy, more clearly marked ones were attached to later instruments?

 

In other words, do you have any knowledge of ones with primitive markings, which have been accurately dated as later instruments, or ones with clear, name & address stamps which are known without doubt, to be earlier?

 

Cheers

Dick

Dick,

Its a complete minefield, made more complicated by the fact that Jeffries instruments made a better price on the second-hand market, so sometimes you find that 'Jeffries' has been stamped on to try to raise the value. Your ear is the best test for genuiness.

 

But as a generality - the Crabb/Jeffries with simple stampings - then CJ (but which?) with Praed - then J Bros. with Praed - then CJ jnr ornamental - then CJ Jnr crude - is roughly the stamp order.

[Ptarmigan]

Dick,

Its a complete minefield, made more complicated by the fact that Jeffries instruments made a better price on the second-hand market, so sometimes you find that 'Jeffries' has been stamped on to try to raise the value. Your ear is the best test for genuiness.

 

Well Wes, on my way home I let both Roger Digby & Dave Prebble have a honk on it & they were both satisfied that this one was the genuine article, so on that score, I'm quite happy.

 

 

Dick,

But as a generality - the Crabb/Jeffries with simple stampings - then CJ (but which?) with Praed - then J Bros. with Praed - then CJ jnr ornamental - then CJ Jnr crude - is roughly the stamp order.

 

Ah, that's fascinating to see that in CJ Jnr's case, the ornamental came before the crude.

Thanks, that certainly helps me to narrow down the date for mine.

 

Cheers

Dick

[nkgibbs]

I am guilty of not reading all the details in this thread but offer the following two pictures of a 'C. Jeffries Maker' 45b Anglo #20.

 

Regards,

Neil

 

 

 

 

 

[wes williams]

Thanks Neil, that shows that the 'other' 'Jeffries' fret pattern probably goes back at least to the start of the 23 Praed St period (~1892), and it was block capital stamped without address.

[Ptarmigan]

I ... offer the following two pictures of a 'C. Jeffries Maker' 45b Anglo #20.

 

Regards,

Neil

 

Thanks for those photos Neil.

However, just when I was getting the idea that my 45b was probably made in the 1920s, up pop these photos of an 1890s instrument, which has ends which look very much like those on my Concertina .. i.e. same fret pattern & "block capital stamped without address."

 

Oh for a Crystal Ball!

 

Cheers

Dick

[nkgibbs]

I am glad that these photos were helpful.

 

At the risk of boring everyone I attach the 1891 census which includes William Derriman of 13, Jessop Road, Herne Hill.

 

The observant amongst you will note that there is nothing new about certain rich professions.

 

Neil

 

[Ptarmigan]

Aye Neil, it's interesting going back through the old records.

 

I found out that my own Great Grandfather, whose Fiddle I still play, was born in 1888 & grew up to be a Ploughman, like his father before him.

His wife's father was a Railway Surface Man.

My Grandad then worked down the mines, involved with explosives before ending up working for the Railway & playing in their Pipe Band.

 

Despite being reared in Edinburgh, I grew up with a real yearning to work in the countryside & worked on country estates as a Gamekeeper & Gardener & later in Pest Control, for a number of years, so I guess it was fate, cause the country was in my genes all the time.

 

Cheers

Dick

Edited March 6, 2011 by Ptarmigan