Need Beginners Concertina Advice!

[Dirge]

I really think that a Crane would be the Duet that would most suit the mind-set of a pianist.

As someone who plays piano as well as Hayden and (in progress) Crane, I agree. A Crane is somewhat analogous to a piano in that it has the "white keys" in the center three columns and the "black keys" in the outer ones. The

 

Prime nonsense. How is having all the white notes in the middle and the black notes at the edges like, sorry, analogous to, a piano? Funny piano. (A Maccan has all the accidentals at the edges apart from Eb incidentally.)

 

Very few pianists that I have come across play much by ear, they like the notes in front of them. To play written piano music the key thing is register, and flexibility to grab a selection of notes as indicated, not the equivalents that fall to hand. There's not much convincing music for duet concertinas elsewhere.

 

I would not be able to do what I do with a Crane; the keyboards would be too tall (an exchange for a narrowing I don't need). That's assuming I found a decent sized one in the first place; Rod seems to be trying quite hard and failing... I would not be playing the quality of concertina either, almost certainly and I would miss that too.

 

Just because you two have gone for the 'easier' system you don't have to make it out to be more than it is. Crane is perhaps the best route for the self accompanist, although even then you'll do well to find an edeophone grade instrument, but for a pianist, no.

 

The more I learn the more certain I am that Maccan is the best system from every aspect IF you are prepared to do the apprenticeship.

[Daniel Hersh]

I really think that a Crane would be the Duet that would most suit the mind-set of a pianist.

As someone who plays piano as well as Hayden and (in progress) Crane, I agree. A Crane is somewhat analogous to a piano in that it has the "white keys" in the center three columns and the "black keys" in the outer ones

Prime nonsense.

Dirge, why do so many of your posts have to include this sort of thing? How about "I disagree"? Your trash talking distracts from the valuable contributions you make to the discussion.

 

That having been said...

 

How is having all the white notes in the middle and the black notes at the edges like, sorry, analogous to, a piano? Funny piano. (A Maccan has all the accidentals at the edges apart from Eb incidentally.)

 

Very few pianists that I have come across play much by ear, they like the notes in front of them. To play written piano music the key thing is register, and flexibility to grab a selection of notes as indicated, not the equivalents that fall to hand. There's not much convincing music for duet concertinas elsewhere.

 

I would not be able to do what I do with a Crane; the keyboards would be too tall (an exchange for a narrowing I don't need). That's assuming I found a decent sized one in the first place; Rod seems to be trying quite hard and failing... I would not be playing the quality of concertina either, almost certainly and I would miss that too.

 

Just because you two have gone for the 'easier' system you don't have to make it out to be more than it is. Crane is perhaps the best route for the self accompanist, although even then you'll do well to find an edeophone grade instrument, but for a pianist, no.

 

The more I learn the more certain I am that Maccan is the best system from every aspect IF you are prepared to do the apprenticeship.

Perhaps I shouldn't have agreed with John quite so readily. I can't comment on how a Crane would compare to Maccann, since I don't play Maccann. And I said that I play piano, not that I'm a pianist. I took classical piano lessons for several years when I was young, but I've played very little classical music for decades. My main interest now on concertina is doing solo arrangements of instrumental music from traditional styles - O'Carolan tunes, waltzes, etc. - and I now play mostly by ear. I find the Crane to work well for that, but I realize that Maccann could well be better for the kind of music that you do. I think that the musical interests of the person for whom the concertina is intended are closer to mine than to yours, but I appreciate the points that you've made. And I agree that length of "apprenticeship" is a real issue.

[Dirge]

Prime nonsense.

Dirge, why do so many of your posts have to include this sort of thing? How about "I disagree"? Your trash talking distracts from the valuable contributions you make to the discussion.

 

 

How about because I don't just 'disagree' I knew it was prime nonsense and explained why?

 

As an alternative to your 'tutting' post demonstrating how unreasonable I am for calling attention to your lapse you could have looked at your post and my comment and thought, "Oh Lord he's right, that was pretty stupid" made a joke out of it and gracefully admitted that , yes this time you were wrong. We could have all had a laugh and moved smoothly on.

 

Instead you have to aggressively and rudely prove how unreasonable I am for finding your comment daft and daring to say so. It's all a bit like hard work, isn't it?

[JimLucas]

Prime nonsense.

Dirge, why do so many of your posts have to include this sort of thing? How about "I disagree"? Your trash talking distracts from the valuable contributions you make to the discussion.

How about because I don't just 'disagree' I knew it was prime nonsense and explained why?

....

[etc.]

Please stop, you two!

This is a useful thread, and I for one don't want Paul shutting it down because a couple of individuals got too heated.

If you want to continue blowing air on the coals (with or without bellows), please do it in PM's.

Having said that, though, I'll follow this post with one giving my own take on the subject at hand.

[JimLucas]

This post is just my advice to mitchino, with a very few comments on the different systems.

 

I hope I'll find time to write something more comprehensive over the next few days. But that will be too late for Christmas... unless he takes the advice to present a gift certificate and involve the gift recipient in the selection process. But I highly recommend that, for a few reasons:

• Unless you can walk into a shop tomorrow and walk out with a concertina, you'll be too late to present it on Christmas, anyway.
  
• Mitchinmo, are you also a musician? My impression, from various of the questions you've asked, is that you're not. Or at least that you can't imagine/fantisize how it feels to play different kinds of music on different kinds of instruments or even differently arranged keyboards. Can you even picture in your head the arrangements she plays on the piano? It seems to me that you don't have enough information to make a decision as to what would best suit your partner musically. She may not, either, but I'm sure she can do better than you.
  
• Asking her to help in the selection is also a form of praise, praise which I suspect she will both deserve and appreciate.
  
• Finally, you have said that your budget's max is $300. Have you considered the possibility that that simply isn't enough to get her something that she will actually appreciate? Might it be better to not get her a concertina, at all? (I hope not. But would you even think of giving a wine connoiseur a $5 bottle of wine, because you couldn't afford more? I suspect you would give them something other than wine, instead.) But is there maybe another possibility? Does she have an independent budget for special items or for music? If so, combining your $300 with some of her money might be able to get her something far more satisfying, and may be worth far more to both of you than the suprise of finding a physical concertina in her hands on Christmas Day.

Hmm. One thing I seem to have missed in this discussion is whether she has personally expressed a desire for a concertina. Has she? And if so, has she indicated that she wants to use it as a sort of second piano? Is something that seems as similar to the piano as possible really what she wants? Many musicians play instruments that are radically different from each other not only in the way they sound and the way they feel, but in the sorts of "arrangements" they play on them. E.g., piano, fiddle, whistle, and guitar (but not bothering with piano accordion).

 

Now to the concertinas:

As I indicated above, trying to get one that's as "similar to" the piano as possible may not be an appropriate goal. And even for duets, the differences are so much greater than the similarities that I personally think it's an unrealistic criterion. A duet may indeed be the best choice for your partner, but both the English and the anglo have many advantages of their own. In detail, the arrangements one would play on either of those would be different from most piano scores, but the same is true of duets, even the big ones. (More on this in a later post.)

But since so much has already been said about the different duet systems, I'll say just a few things about them here:

• First, there have been both minor misstatements of detail and significant (IMO) omissions in preceding posts with regard to all of the systems. (I'll enumerate, later.)
  
• Secondly, aside from the ability to play independent "parts" in the two hands, none of them even remotely resembles -- or feels like -- a piano, especially at the "introductory" level of an instrument with fewer than 40 buttons. And just how important is that independent-hands criterion? Guitarists, from classical to jazz to rock and more, don't seem to find it at all necessary. So I think that other characteristcs are more important. (Again, more detail, later.)
  
• Among the duets, I mostly play Crane, but I have tried my hand(s) at the Maccann, Jeffries, a unique Pitt-Taylor, Hayden (very briefly, but also with a printed-on-paper mockup), and Wheatstone Double (mockup only), and I don't find any of them to be inherently or significantly superior (or inferior) to the others, though one may seem better for a particular style of arrangement, tune, and key... and possibly for a particular individual.

Now to a few specific comments:

 

I really think that a Crane would be the Duet that would most suit the mind-set of a pianist.

I have dabbled with the piano, and the Crane is still my personal choice among the duets, but I can think of nothing in my experience to support that claim.

 

A Crane is somewhat analogous to a piano in that it has the "white keys" in the center three columns and the "black keys" in the outer ones.

Prime nonsense.

While I wouldn't have used the same words, I agree with Dirge on this point. It's possible to think of the white keys on the piano being separated from the black ones in a front-to-back sense, but that's not at all like the side-to-side or inner-vs.-outer (either or both, like some optical illusions) separation on the Crane. And as Dirge pointed out, the same distinction is true on the Maccann, with the sole exception of the D#.

 

Each of the duet systems has an underlying logic, but the logical bases are different. Some people are more comfortable with one pattern of logic than another. We're not all alike, not even those who are married to each other. That's another reason why it's important to involve the recipient in the selection of this sort of gift. (What if she would really prefer a set of uillean pipes? )

 

Very few pianists that I have come across play much by ear, they like the notes in front of them.

I know quite a few who mostly play by ear, even those that can play from written music. In fact, most of those who play genres other than classical would find written music annoying and restrictive and would ignore it, except for the melody line for a tune they don't already know.

 

Just because you two have gone for the 'easier' system you don't have to make it out to be more than it is. Crane is perhaps the best route for the self accompanist, although even then you'll do well to find an edeophone grade instrument, but for a pianist, no.

Prime nonsense.

Dirge, I think you have a very narrow-minded concept of what a "pianist" is and does.

The more I learn the more certain I am that Maccan is the best system from every aspect IF you are prepared to do the apprenticeship.

"

Every

aspect"? No.

Possibly for every aspect that you personally consider important. But not everyone has musical tastes, values and desires identical to yours. I stand by my own comment, above:

"I don't find any of them to be inherently or significantly superior (or inferior) to the others, though one may seem better for a particular style of arrangement, tune, and key... and possibly for a particular individual."

[Daniel Hersh]

Excellent post, Jim. I agree with all the things you say that I'm qualified to comment on, including your correction of my own statement.

 

This post is just my advice to mitchino, with a very few comments on the different systems.

 

I hope I'll find time to write something more comprehensive over the next few days. But that will be too late for Christmas... unless he takes the advice to present a gift certificate and involve the gift recipient in the selection process. But I highly recommend that, for a few reasons:

• Unless you can walk into a shop tomorrow and walk out with a concertina, you'll be too late to present it on Christmas, anyway.
• Mitchinmo, are you also a musician? My impression, from various of the questions you've asked, is that you're not. Or at least that you can't imagine/fantisize how it feels to play different kinds of music on different kinds of instruments or even differently arranged keyboards. Can you even picture in your head the arrangements she plays on the piano? It seems to me that you don't have enough information to make a decision as to what would best suit your partner musically. She may not, either, but I'm sure she can do better than you.
• Asking her to help in the selection is also a form of praise, praise which I suspect she will both deserve and appreciate.
• Finally, you have said that your budget's max is $300. Have you considered the possibility that that simply isn't enough to get her something that she will actually appreciate? Might it be better to not get her a concertina, at all? (I hope not. But would you even think of giving a wine connoiseur a $5 bottle of wine, because you couldn't afford more? I suspect you would give them something other than wine, instead.) But is there maybe another possibility? Does she have an independent budget for special items or for music? If so, combining your $300 with some of her money might be able to get her something far more satisfying, and may be worth far more to both of you than the suprise of finding a physical concertina in her hands on Christmas Day.

Hmm. One thing I seem to have missed in this discussion is whether she has personally expressed a desire for a concertina. Has she? And if so, has she indicated that she wants to use it as a sort of second piano? Is something that seems as similar to the piano as possible really what she wants? Many musicians play instruments that are radically different from each other not only in the way they sound and the way they feel, but in the sorts of "arrangements" they play on them. E.g., piano, fiddle, whistle, and guitar (but not bothering with piano accordion).

 

Now to the concertinas:

As I indicated above, trying to get one that's as "similar to" the piano as possible may not be an appropriate goal. And even for duets, the differences are so much greater than the similarities that I personally think it's an unrealistic criterion. A duet may indeed be the best choice for your partner, but both the English and the anglo have many advantages of their own. In detail, the arrangements one would play on either of those would be different from most piano scores, but the same is true of duets, even the big ones. (More on this in a later post.)

But since so much has already been said about the different duet systems, I'll say just a few things about them here:

• First, there have been both minor misstatements of detail and significant (IMO) omissions in preceding posts with regard to all of the systems. (I'll enumerate, later.)
• Secondly, aside from the ability to play independent "parts" in the two hands, none of them even remotely resembles -- or feels like -- a piano, especially at the "introductory" level of an instrument with fewer than 40 buttons. And just how important is that independent-hands criterion? Guitarists, from classical to jazz to rock and more, don't seem to find it at all necessary. So I think that other characteristcs are more important. (Again, more detail, later.)
• Among the duets, I mostly play Crane, but I have tried my hand(s) at the Maccann, Jeffries, a unique Pitt-Taylor, Hayden (very briefly, but also with a printed-on-paper mockup), and Wheatstone Double (mockup only), and I don't find any of them to be inherently or significantly superior (or inferior) to the others, though one may seem better for a particular style of arrangement, tune, and key... and possibly for a particular individual.

Now to a few specific comments:

 

I really think that a Crane would be the Duet that would most suit the mind-set of a pianist.

I have dabbled with the piano, and the Crane is still my personal choice among the duets, but I can think of nothing in my experience to support that claim.

 

A Crane is somewhat analogous to a piano in that it has the "white keys" in the center three columns and the "black keys" in the outer ones.

Prime nonsense.

While I wouldn't have used the same words, I agree with Dirge on this point. It's possible to think of the white keys on the piano being separated from the black ones in a front-to-back sense, but that's not at all like the side-to-side or inner-vs.-outer (either or both, like some optical illusions) separation on the Crane. And as Dirge pointed out, the same distinction is true on the Maccann, with the sole exception of the D#.

 

Each of the duet systems has an underlying logic, but the logical bases are different. Some people are more comfortable with one pattern of logic than another. We're not all alike, not even those who are married to each other. That's another reason why it's important to involve the recipient in the selection of this sort of gift. (What if she would really prefer a set of uillean pipes? )

 

Very few pianists that I have come across play much by ear, they like the notes in front of them.

I know quite a few who mostly play by ear, even those that can play from written music. In fact, most of those who play genres other than classical would find written music annoying and restrictive and would ignore it, except for the melody line for a tune they don't already know.

 

Just because you two have gone for the 'easier' system you don't have to make it out to be more than it is. Crane is perhaps the best route for the self accompanist, although even then you'll do well to find an edeophone grade instrument, but for a pianist, no.

Prime nonsense.

Dirge, I think you have a very narrow-minded concept of what a "pianist" is and does.

The more I learn the more certain I am that Maccan is the best system from every aspect IF you are prepared to do the apprenticeship.

"

Every

aspect"? No.

Possibly for every aspect that you personally consider important. But not everyone has musical tastes, values and desires identical to yours. I stand by my own comment, above:

"I don't find any of them to be inherently or significantly superior (or inferior) to the others, though one may seem better for a particular style of arrangement, tune, and key... and possibly for a particular individual."

[mitchino]

Actually I was looking to spend around 500 dollars, or 350 english pounds. It is too late for christmas of course, but I'd still like to get her one. She has long expressed a longing for a squeezebox of some kind. I will try to find out what that means exactly. I just wanted to get her a cheap but good concertina to get started on - if she likes it, then she can spend the big bucks in the future.

 

As for type, I was only thinking Duet because people said it suits piano players and sight readers. I just want one that is fully chromatic and reasonably easy to knock out a tune on. Personally I'd choose an anglo, as I used to play the harmonica a bit. I'm not a proper musician, but can play a little guitar and piano, and was a full time drummer years ago.

 

Thanks for all the continuing opinion and info, it's confusing, but it helps.

[Theo]

As for type, I was only thinking Duet because people said it suits piano players and sight readers. I just want one that is fully chromatic and reasonably easy to knock out a tune on.

 

English fits that spec equally well. For a reader, the note layout of English has a particularly straightforward relation to standard notation with all the lines on the left and the spaces on the right.

 

For your budget the Jackie is the one.

[Greg Jowaisas]

There is a nice little mini-treatise on the home page that gives a player's perspective of the different concertina systems:

 

http://www.concertina.net/duet_dr.html

 

Greg

[Woody]

Actually I was looking to spend around 500 dollars, or 350 english pounds. It is too late for christmas of course, but I'd still like to get her one. She has long expressed a longing for a squeezebox of some kind.

Perhaps you could combine the IOU with the offer of a trip to somewhere where she can try a range of squeezeboxes. Loathe though I am to suggest it, she might prefer a Melodeon :ph34r:

 

My experience is that lots of instruments look fun but you only really start to become sure that it's the one for you when you actually pick it up and start learning what it feels like playing it.