Concertina in Egytian music?

[mikep1]

I have recently been playing some arabic music on a G/D concertina and also finding out about the influence of sailors and their instruments on the development of Baladi music in the Ports of Alexandria and Port Said. There is much on how this developed into the Egyptian accordion styles in the early 20th century, but I have also heard some mention of concertinas. Does any one on the forum have any further info on this as I would love to elaborate my knowledge in this area, thanks Mike

PS sorry about the topic misspelling, still recovering after visit to Cairo last week

Edited October 24, 2010 by mikep1

[Dan Worrall]

I have recently been playing some arabic music on a G/D concertina and also finding out about the influence of sailors and their instruments on the development of Baladi music in the Ports of Alexandria and Port Said. There is much on how this developed into the Egyptian accordion styles in the early 20th century, but I have also heard some mention of concertinas. Does any one on the forum have any further info on this as I would love to elaborate my knowledge in this area, thanks Mike

PS sorry about the topic misspelling, still recovering after visit to Cairo last week

 

I'm no expert in this, but the Arabic scale has quarter tones in it that are unplayable on a standard Anglo concertina. In the 20th Century, Egyptians have taken accordions and filed down some of the notes to make Baladi music (more or less, belly dance music). In principle this could be done with a concertina. I have not found much in the way of newspaper/book sightings of the concertina in Egypt in the late 19th century during its heyday...just the odd British player during colonial times, never the local folks. I've always thought that this was due to the inappropriateness of the standard concertina to Arabic scales (India, another British colony then, same problem). The inventive conversion in Egypt of accordions to quarter tone scales seems to have happened in the 20th century, after the Anglo's heyday was over.

 

Because my interpretation of the general non-use of concertinas is based upon lack of sightings. a few good sightings would change this interpretation!

 

Cheers,

Dan

[Alan Day]

This subject of music influences is very interesting because some French Bourree's have a very Arabic /Moroccan sound to them.

Al

[Geoff Wooff]

This subject of music influences is very interesting because some French Bourree's have a very Arabic /Moroccan sound to them.

Al

 

Yes Alan,

I hear these influences too. Maybe Montluçon was a big crossroads of trading and cultures ?

Geoff.

[Marien]

A part of the Egypsian music uses oriental scales without using quart notes - there is an awful lot of oriental tunes that just use another scale - like C, C#, E, F, G, Ab, B, C eventually combined with the "usual" C scale. To my idea the quart scales are an asian influence (India) that is used in Arabic music especially for slow airs and songs to express certain moods.

 

In a way this oriental scale C, C#, E, F, G, Ab, B, C is a variation of a major C scale. It is easy to play it on a diatonic instrument with just a few incidentals.

 

Another example of such a "deviant" scale is a very commonlu used scale in european music before 1700 (so before Bach wrote his chord theory). The scale is mostly used in D tunes: D, E, F#, G, A, A#, C, D (or transposed to C: C D E F G Ab Bb C).

This scale is typically used for music in the playford dancemaster era and a vefry common scale in court music in Western Europe from Portugal to Sweden. Also here, there are just 2 notes differing from the "usual" major scale - and scales are often combined going up in a usual C scale and going down in this deviant scale.

 

Back to Arabia. Many modal dance tunes follow this oriental scale (and there are variants) in Turkish, Armenian, Palestinian, Macedonian, Iranian, Egyptian, Tunesian, Algerian and Moroccan tunes and all "Arabic" countries. Many countries have a living tradition related to this music due to the history od (sub populations of) these countries, like the Balcan, Spain, Italy and Portugal. Also, much music from the troubadours have north African influences and they brought these musical oriental flavours into France and further up north.

 

Klezmer and Greek music are typically combining oriental scales with the classical major and minor scales.

Hoping this helps,

 

Marien

[michael sam wild]

I was in Crette and some of the lyra players ( 3 string 'fiddle') mentioned Egyptian influences whilst being proud of their own heritage.

 

 

Dan

 

I wonder how the lap organ was adapted to indian music it is very popular

 

 

Alan

 

Much Eurpoean folk music was based on the white note scale starting at A and was promoted by the church and plain song. so that 'Aeolian modal' sound is quite common.

[Dan Worrall]

When in doubt, check Wikipedia!

 

This entry explains the scale used in Bayadi music, as well as other Middle Eastern maqamat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter_tone_scale

Check the first scale shown under "Music of the Middle East".

 

As you can see, Arabs use a "normal" seven note scale--much like our various western scales in gross overall form--but it contains one or more quarter note intervals. Each other maqam (a maqam is more or less like a mode in western music) shown has quarter notes in other places. Where we vary our modes by altering the location of half step intervals in the scale, they alter the half steps and then add one or more quarter steps.

 

In principle, one could easily alter a concertina to play Bayadi by just filing down one note. If you want to play in another maqam, however, you would have to file down other notes. In the nineteenth century, the average Egyptian who might otherwise be in the market for a cheap, off the shelf German concertina would be put off by the lack of quarter tones, and would not usually have the skill to file down reeds in this new instrument. Worse, if he/she wished to play in several maqamat, the typical two row German concertina would not allow that...it would allow only two scales. A three row Anglo could allow more...some notes on the third row could be kept as needed accidentals (flats, mostly) and others could be changed to quarter tones. It would be tricky, and the scales would be awkward to play (like us playing a CG Anglo in keys with three flats)...the Anglo was designed for western scales in C and G (or G and D). Using Anglos was obviously not worth the trouble in Egypt and India, as Anglo playing was not picked up.

 

I'm not a lap organ player, Alan, but I'd guess that the same principles discussed would apply to them too. They have seven note scales and have room for some accidentals, so could be altered (eventually, redesigned of course) to fit arabic scales, in the same way that accordions were. With their piano-like keyboard, lap organs would be much more adaptable to these scales than a push-pull Anglo. Accordions were altered in Egypt in the 20th century, after the heyday of the Anglo was over. I don't know when lap organs appeared in India.

 

Cheers,

Dan

Edited October 25, 2010 by Dan Worrall

[fernando]

I'm very interested in this topic! I sometimes play in other scales that have an arabic sound to me, but I don't play any tune, I just mess around. But I feel so well when I play those notes!

 

Once I think I got to change the scale of this tune:

 

Scotish Border Pipes.wav

 

I turned it into this:

 

Change of Scale Scotish Tune.wav

 

There are mistakes, but you can see that it is the same tune.

 

I changed a few notes, and with that I think I'm playing the same but in another scale, and I think it is the arabic. But I'm not sure.

 

If anyone knows tunes in the arabic scale that can be played in the concertina please let me know! I need something simple, easy to play because this scale is new to me.

 

Fernando

Edited October 25, 2010 by fernando

[Alan Day]

Here is a quick recording of a French Bourree that I thought of when this subject came up.

Al

[fernando]

Here is a quick recording of a French Bourree that I thought of when this subject came up.

Al

 

Very good Alan! I love that tune! I'm very interested in French bourrees. I'm planning to go to live to France in a few years, and I can get ready for that

 

I learnt from you the bourree Chasse Pain, that was the first time I played chords in a tune. I cannot play exactly the same as you because I don't know how you do it! but I do something similar.

 

Do you have a name for this tune you posted here Alan?

Edited October 25, 2010 by fernando

[Alan Day]

Sorry Fernando no name for this one ,but a lovely tune to precede Chasse Pain, which is one of my favourite bourree's.

Pleased you like them both.

Al

[ceemonster]

i also am loving this topic.....basically, my favorite stuff is anything from pakistan/india/middle east, straight west through eastern europe genres, scandianavian genres, etc., to the british isles and then appalachia, that has that modal-ish/minor-ish strain to it....europe's pre-"western church modes" music, or at least, a major strain of it.....i have a number of baladi cds and love egyptian accordion....on anglo concertina, for this music and the sounds of india/pakistan, it would be desirable to have all notes in both directions, rather than only some notes in both directions....you could almost pull this off on the 38-key concertina by limiting your octaves and getting rid of all notes over high-c and below, say, the "f" below middle-c and instead using those spots plus your extra buttons, to make your concertina fully bidirectional within that span....i am working on such a design for a 38-key for irish music, and hoping to be able to use it better for these wonderful genres as well.....

Edited October 25, 2010 by ceemonster

[Marien]

Al's bourree is called "derriere chez nous". The way I know it is slightly different and less oriental but it is definitely the same tune from the Auvergne. I will add a set later today we recorded in januari - not on concertina but it is on fiddle, accordian and cyttern. It starts off with two different tunes.

marien

[Marien]

Here is a quick recording of a French Bourree that I thought of when this subject came up.

Al

 

nice tune.

 

It may sound a little oriental but in fact the scales in this Bourree fit perfectly in classical scales.

Probably it is in another key but if it were in C it is something like this:

The first part is in a major scale (like going up fom C D E F G A B C )

and the second part is in a minor key (like going back from C Bb Ab G F Eb D to C).

 

edited to repair the wrong going down scale..

Edited October 27, 2010 by marien

[MarkvN]

Hi Fernando,

There is a video of Alan Day playing Chasse Pain on Youtube:

. Might give you some additional ideas on how to play it!

Cheers,

Mark

Edited October 27, 2010 by MarkvN

[Marien]

Here is promised track of "derierre chez nous" (a draft recording in a folk club). The track combines 3 tunes, le Valentinou, Auw Wijvendans and Derierre chez nous. the first and the last are traditional dance tunes from the Auvergne. The middle one is from Flanders.

 

20 valentinou - derriere chez nous.mp3

 

"Derierre chez nous" is similar to the tune Al attached above, but the one is all major and does not use minor scales.

 

Marien

[Alan Day]

Interesting version and the B part I have heard on another tune. This does not surprise me at all as I have attended many French sessions and for many tunes the A's and B's seem to swap around. When Mel Stevens was looking for French music there was almost none written down ,so he travelled around the festivals writing out the tunes ,hence Massif Tune Books 1& 2.

Even the French now use these books as a guide.It just shows that even in a small area of Central France tunes can almost vary from one village to the next.It is represented here by two versions of the same tune both from almost the same region.

Al

[Marien]

When Mel Stevens was looking for French music there was almost none written down ,so he travelled around the festivals writing out the tunes ,hence Massif Tune Books 1& 2....

Al

 

Al,

 

That is interesting, do you know where I could order these two books????

 

Some french sources I use for music from the Central Massif are:

- The AMTA books - check this site

- Chants et Danses du Massif Central by Huguette Cochinal - many tunes and it also explains the dances.

- dots I got from french musicians (people from Brioude, Clermont Ferrand and festivals

- Chansons d'Auvergne by alain Bruel, Fifier Huguet and Jean-Claude Rocher (275 pages with tunes and songs).

- a bunch of tunes on the web page of tradfrance

- not to forget - live music and tapes and records

 

It is typical that in small villages I picked up tunes that are in no book....

 

...except a small number of tunes such as "para lo lop".

 

For the Irish - this wolf - lo lop - is the lark in the morning of Auvergne.