What commonly causes reeds to go out of tune?

[varney]

The title says it all...............what do people find is the most common reason for a steel reed to go out of tune? I was asked this question and cited heat / cold, metal fatigue, instrument taking a knock etc, but was unable to say which was the most common cause....

[Guest HallelujahAl!]

Actually metal reeds are very good at staying in tune - especially compared to stringed instruments which always seem to be in need of constant tuning. I think that the most obvious cause for reeds needing to be retuned after a lengthy period of time is that the actual process of playing them, blowing vast quantities of air through them will inevitably lead to to a measure of repitching. Secondly the build up of rust and other such debris on the reeds causes the metal to change shape, size and weight (proportionally and in most cases fractionally) which - in my experience of tuning concertina reeds means an inevitable sharpening of the reed. Valve shrinkage is another reason for concertina reeds to eventually be in need of retuning (along with of course replacing the old valves with new). Metal fatigue is much more serious an issue and does not indicate a re-tune, but replacement - especially if the reed is swinging really low all of a sudden. Just a few of my thoughts. Plenty of folk here a lot more experienced than I on this matter.

AL

Edited July 23, 2010 by HallelujahAl!

[JimLucas]

The title says it all...............what do people find is the most common reason for a steel reed to go out of tune? I was asked this question and cited heat / cold, metal fatigue, instrument taking a knock etc, but was unable to say which was the most common cause....

Quality steel reeds do not "commonly" go out of tune. "Most common" for a good steel reed is for it to not go out of tune -- significantly, or even noticeably -- over a span of less than decades. So I wonder why the person asked you the question.

 

Very often, when a reed seems to go out of tune (almost always flat), the problem is not the reed tongue itself, but some shift in the way it is secured. E.g.,

• A change in the environment -- changing temperature or humidity -- may cause small changes in the wood of the reed pan, resulting in the reed frame becoming either too loose or too tight in its slot. Most often this can be cured by simply sliding the reed frame out of its slot and then firmly (but not too firmly) reseating it.
  
• A speck of dust can become caught between the reed tongue and its frame, hindering the reed's motion.
  
• Less common, the reed tongue may shift minutely out of place in its frame (perhaps not clamped quite tightly enough?), with a result that it rubs against the inside of the frame as it tries to vibrate.

All of the above should be correctable without having to "retune" the reed.

 

Of course, if the individual reed is physically damaged by an external factor -- being banged, scratched, or bent, or becoming rusty, -- that can also affect the pitch, but as with the above examples, I wouldn't count that as "going out of tune".

 

Another reason why I wonder about the question is that if a reed does appear to go out of tune, the only thing that matters is the particular reason that particular reed was affected, not what is "most common". In such a situation, one should check for all possible causes, and only knowing about the one "most common" cause could have undesirable consequences.

[Guest HallelujahAl!]

when a reed seems to go out of tune (almost always flat)

Sorry Jim - but I couldn't disagree more. I've tuned many, many concertinas and the most common issue with steel reeded 'tinas I've discovered is that they have usually gone a little sharp, and not flat as you state. I agree however that when a reed suddenly goes flat and out of tune (i.e when you don't need a meter to hear what's happening) then it's a case of metal fatigue and nothing to do with tuning at all.

 

I believe that the reason for reeds sounding sharp over time is, as I mentioned earlier, the build up of rust and debris particularly on the lower end of the reed (i.e. near where the reed is secure to to the reed-shoe). I'd be interested to hear from other members to see if any share my experiences?

AL

[shaunw]

Its interesting that as some people have pointed out that reeds don't go out of

tune in the constant way that that violin and guitar strings do.

 

On the other hand you don't have to take you violin or guitar apart to retune it

so the fact that reeds generally stay in tune is not as good as it sounds.

 

The great majority of out of tune problems can be fixed by cleaning with a sliver

of paper. So the most common cause must be dirt, debris or moisture build up.

Problems that can only be fixed by physical alteration of the reed are probably

caused by metal fatigue or corrosion or even lack of use. Sometimes the very high

notes that you don't use often will come back into tune with repeated playing.

So I suppose we would have to call that 'lack of exercise'.

[David Barnert]

when a reed seems to go out of tune (almost always flat)

Sorry Jim - but I couldn't disagree more. I've tuned many, many concertinas and the most common issue with steel reeded 'tinas I've discovered is that they have usually gone a little sharp, and not flat as you state. I agree however that when a reed suddenly goes flat and out of tune (i.e when you don't need a meter to hear what's happening) then it's a case of metal fatigue and nothing to do with tuning at all.

 

I believe that the reason for reeds sounding sharp over time is, as I mentioned earlier, the build up of rust and debris particularly on the lower end of the reed (i.e. near where the reed is secure to to the reed-shoe). I'd be interested to hear from other members to see if any share my experiences?

AL

It seems to me there is no disagreement here at all. Jim said that the reeds seem to sound flat (ie. the reed itself is not really out of tune) under certain conditions. Al said that when reeds really do go out of tune, they tend to go sharp. Apples and oranges. They could easily both be true, and neither has bearing on the truth of the other.

 

Its interesting that as some people have pointed out that reeds don't go out of

tune in the constant way that that violin and guitar strings do.

 

On the other hand you don't have to take you violin or guitar apart to retune it

so the fact that reeds generally stay in tune is not as good as it sounds.

Huh?

 

If concertinas went out of tune as frequently as violins, there would be an easily accessible tuning mechanism on the outside. Similarly, if violins had the stable intonation that concertinas do, there wouldn't be these big ugly black pegs sticking out of the scroll. These instruments have the form that they have for a reason. They have evolved to meet the needs of those who use them. If the original violin had to be taken apart to tune, it would have had to evolve into what we have now.

[varney]

Thank you for the advice folks.

 

We almost got bogged down in the semantics of how the question was asked which was my fault. I suppose I should have phrased it "what is the most common cause of a reed going out of tune?"

 

From reading through the answers and looking at other sources the most common cause seems to be ambient temperatures or atmospheric conditions like humidity etc. After that it seems to be any number of a litany of things from dirt or corrosion to work hardening from playing.

 

All very helpful and informative...

 

Michael.

[Theo]

From reading through the answers and looking at other sources the most common cause seems to be ambient temperatures or atmospheric conditions like humidity etc. After that it seems to be any number of a litany of things from dirt or corrosion to work hardening from playing.

 

 

I would be most interested in the sources of evidence that "the most common cause seems to be ambient temperatures or atmospheric conditions like humidity etc."

 

In my experience these have at most a minute effect on pitch of free reeds, in practice the effect is so small that is undetectable. Indeed of all acoustic musical instrument types free reeds are the least affected by these conditions. This is one of the reasons for the former popularity of the pitch pipe, which uses free reeds. Of course these have now been superseded to a large extent by electronic tuners

[varney]

Two sources I have to hand - the reply from Jim above:

 

"A change in the environment -- changing temperature or humidity -- may cause small changes in the wood of the reed pan, resulting in the reed frame becoming either too loose or too tight in its slot"

and Dave Elliott:

 

".........The pitch or tone of a reed can however be affected by other circumstances than simply filing. Ambient tempaerature can have a temporary effect, as can condensation. "

 

 

what would you say is the most common cause, Theo?

[Ransom]

My tuning experience is limited, but would it be wrong to say that the most common cause of a reed being out of tune is that it was originally tuned to old pitch or unequal temperament?

[JimLucas]

My tuning experience is limited, but would it be wrong to say that the most common cause of a reed being out of tune is that it was originally tuned to old pitch or unequal temperament?

I would say yes, it would be wrong.

My understanding of "out of tune" in this context is "out of tune with the rest (the majority?) of the same instrument". And that should take into account the pitch standard and temperament to which the instrument was last intentionally (and competently) tuned.

[Theo]

Two sources I have to hand - the reply from Jim above:

 

"A change in the environment -- changing temperature or humidity -- may cause small changes in the wood of the reed pan, resulting in the reed frame becoming either too loose or too tight in its slot"

 

Those things do happen, but I wouldn't ever describe the result as a reed being out of tune. They can make the reed sound pretty terrible but its normally far worse than just going out if tune, and the remedy is not a matter of retuning the reed tongue, but is to do with getting the reed shoe correctly fitted. If you want to think of this as tuning then fair enough, we can differ on that and still be friends.

 

and Dave Elliott:

 

".........The pitch or tone of a reed can however be affected by other circumstances than simply filing. Ambient temperature can have a temporary effect, as can condensation. "

 

 

I'm not sure what Dave means by this. If you put a concertina player, a woodwind player and a fiddle player in the same room and then allow the ambient temperature to change by 10C then the concertina will not be affected to any audible extent, but the other instruments will and the fiddle will rapidly go out of tune even with itself.

what would you say is the most common cause, Theo?

 

Deterioration in valves, dirt and rust on the reed tongues.

[Guest HallelujahAl!]

what would you say is the most common cause, Theo?

 

Deterioration in valves, dirt and rust on the reed tongues.

 

Amen!