Classical on English vs Duet

[tzirtzi]

I understand that the optimal number of buttons on the EC for classical music would be a tenor-treble: it has the 48 buttons of a treble (that is, the whole range of the violin) plus (I believe) an octave below, going down to the G two below middle C (that is, the whole range of the guitar) (...I think that's right. Someone correct me if I'm wrong!). That enables you to play all guitar, violin and flute music, which is massively useful.

 

However, larger range instruments like this are much more expensive and harder to come by than trebles, as well as heavier - not good beginner instruments. I play a (48 key) treble - with a treble like this you can play all violin and flute music, and in practice a good half of guitar music doesn't go below the bottom of the range and that which does is mostly easy to adapt. An antique treble (as opposed to a modern one like a Jackie) is also very nice and light.

 

But of course a playable antique treble will set you back quite a bit - Chris Algar has written a good guide to prices. He suggests that a "better quality brass reeded instrument" would be about £650 - that's probably a good place to start, as below that price the instruments may be in bad enough condition/quality that they'll make it rather harder for you to learn.

 

So it's worth considering the modern budget instruments - the Jackie and Jack (and possibly the budget '50s Wheatstone just put up in the Buy/Sell forum). These have 30 buttons, with only 3 and a half octaves range. My experience was that I had to put some effort into searching around for music that fit on this range, although there was certainly lots there to find (and I hope I've begun to make the search a bit easier by putting together lots of EC-playable music on my site). These instruments are also heavier, and (due to the accordion reeds? I don't know) the top of their range becomes rather squeaky. On the other hand, they play much more responsively and easily than equivalently priced antiques. If you primarily want to play folk music to begin with (as I did) these are excellent starting instruments.

 

It is possible to buy ECs with fewer with 30 buttons, but they're generally gimmicks made by professional makers and so very expensive and (I can only imagine) very limited due to their range. In between the Jackie/Jack and full 48-key trebles there are also instruments such as the Morse 37 button, AC Norman's 45 key, and Marcus Music's 37 key. But with these you're looking at much higher prices.

[RatFace]

OK here's the music

 

Oh yes - well found!!

 

Here's a direct link to the Gigue that I reckoned would be especially challenging to the duet, due to the way it intermingles the different parts!

[RatFace]

it is nowhere near as well played as on Dave Townsend's recording [but I don't think that's anything to do with the systems being played]).

That is a matter of opinion.

 

Of course both my points were a matter of opinion! But which one were you referring to?

[Dirge]

OK here's the music

 

Oh yes - well found!!

 

Here's a direct link to the Gigue that I reckoned would be especially challenging to the duet, due to the way it intermingles the different parts!

 

OK I'll have a Look at it, but I'm more interested in playing a keyboard gigue. Which I can't do fluently yet, but expect to'

 

Surely the discussion is not about 'Can you play this' rather than.... well I'm not quite sure actally.

[RatFace]

Which leads to the one question no English player has offered advise on: How many buttons would be most optimal for classical music with an EC?

 

The tenor-treble range seems pretty ideal to me - that's 56 keys, 4 octaves starting at C below middle C. It goes up to the top of most violin repertoire, and down just below guitar repertoire (as written - really the guitar plays an octave down). Also the range fits cello/viola music, transposing by an octave for cello of course. Notes above that range tend to sound thin and squeaky anyway (but, on the other hand, the reeds are so small and light there's not much disadvantage to an instrument that extends up a bit higher). Notes below that low C tend to get harsher, slower to and overpower the mid-range notes, and they're big and heavy. So, although you can get baritone-trebles (going down an octave below a normal treble), I think the cost would more than offset any benefit.

 

You can also get the low D# or Eb on a tenor-treble tuned down to a low Bb to extend the range slightly.

[RatFace]

Surely the discussion is not about 'Can you play this' rather than.... well I'm not quite sure actally.

 

Oh I agree (well.. possibly... given vagueness!). However - I do think that this kind of "classical" style, where the different parts intermingle, fits the concertina sound (irrespective of system) better than the "tune + accompaniment" style. I don't know how possible it is on the duet - though M's links to the bandoneon playing perhaps indicate my initial guesses were wrong

[Randy Stein]

I concertized with a piano accompanist for over a decade. I played all across North America including recitals halls at both Lincoln Center and Carnegie Hall in NYC. Most venues however were at music festivals. I had an extensive classical program. Sergei and I often performed the Bach Double Violin Concerto in A Minor together with both a pianist and orchestral accompaniment. The violin music translates easily to the 48 button EC. However playing a piece solo and trying to fill in with chording or runs, while may sound very interesting, changes the original intent of the music. There is very little to no "classical" music written for concertina (Tchaikovsky wrote for it in his orchestral pieces, none solo though). While I enjoyed performing classically, I never had the illusion that it was considered a "novelty act" and not an accepted venue for what normally is performed on the violin or cello. I would never make my living concertizing and found more personal enjoyment arranging popular Italian, French, Spanish, etc pieces to play in venues more readily accepted and, quite frankly, that paid better. I transcribe from piano, guitar, mandolin, flute, cello, and scores that has a melody line. With guitar and piano it is very easy.

And as along as I am ranting...I love the sound of the free reeds on the English treble Aeola. I find the tone and timbre very pleasing and many audiences do also. In my current group I play, we have a violin and viola but the group tunes to the EC because I am always on pitch. Every instrument has its limitations within the music being played. That the Duet has the advantage of performing a rhythmic line to melody of a piece does not mean that it would play Sarasate's Zeiguernewisen efficiently. Both instruments have their advantages...and limitations.

rss

[Boney]

Surely the discussion is not about 'Can you play this' rather than.... well I'm not quite sure actally.

I don't know how possible it is on the duet - though M's links to the bandoneon playing perhaps indicate my initial guesses were wrong

At first glance, it looks surprisingly suitable for a small duet. The lower line almost never goes above a B, which is the highest note on the left-hand side of my 46-button Hayden -- the few exceptions are easily handled. The low E and F are no problem either, but would be for a treble English. I won't have time to even give it a slow runthrough until next week, but I'll let you know how it feels in practice.

[Daniel Hersh]

Selah, I have only just picked up on the fact that you have played piano accordian for some years. I too came to the concertina from the piano accordian, and have always thought that is one reason why I took to the supposedly 'difficult' Maccann more easily than many others seem to do.

To further muddy the waters, you might consider Hayden Duet too (that's what Boney/Jeff plays). The Hayden setup has some things in common with the left-hand side of a standard piano accordion, and, looking at it in a different way, with the white keys on the right-hand side. I play both piano accordion and Hayden myself (though I have played more Anglo than either of those).

[lachenal]

I prefer the playing of Gavin Atkins.

[Selah]

Which leads to the one question no English player has offered advise on: How many buttons would be most optimal for classical music with an EC?

 

The tenor-treble range seems pretty ideal to me - that's 56 keys, 4 octaves starting at C below middle C. It goes up to the top of most violin repertoire, and down just below guitar repertoire (as written - really the guitar plays an octave down). Also the range fits cello/viola music, transposing by an octave for cello of course. Notes above that range tend to sound thin and squeaky anyway (but, on the other hand, the reeds are so small and light there's not much disadvantage to an instrument that extends up a bit higher). Notes below that low C tend to get harsher, slower to and overpower the mid-range notes, and they're big and heavy. So, although you can get baritone-trebles (going down an octave below a normal treble), I think the cost would more than offset any benefit.

 

You can also get the low D# or Eb on a tenor-treble tuned down to a low Bb to extend the range slightly.

 

Thanks for your clarity! Do you know the measurement across the flat ends and the weight of various treble tenors? Any thoughts on the quality and mellowness of sound etc of specific vintage ones out there that you would suggest. Feel free to pM me directly though I think all these thoughts would be great for others to hear.

[RatFace]

So, although you can get baritone-trebles (going down an octave below a normal treble), I think the cost would more than offset any benefit.

 

I should clarify - by cost I mean that baritone-trebles will be significantly heavier, making it much harder to articulate the notes. They're also a lot rarer, so the chance of finding one that also sounds good and plays evenly across all its range is much less than for a tenor treble.

[m3838]

Thanks for your clarity! Do you know the measurement across the flat ends and the weight of various treble tenors? Any thoughts on the quality and mellowness of sound etc of specific vintage ones out there that you would suggest. Feel free to pM me directly though I think all these thoughts would be great for others to hear.

 

For a PA player all ECs are small, their size differs little and if you are playing sitting (as you should for classical music), weight matters none.

More important is the sound qualities, here you will not find uniformity. My Tenor sounds very mellow and round, but it doesn't work well with chords. My Jackie is more accordion than concertina, and harmony works way better.

I tried some Aeolas, supposedly the best out there, and was very unimpressed with it's sound, "screamy" and loud.

Many today's makers make concertinas specifically fitted for Irish Music in a Session, so the mark of sound quality is "loudness".

I'd suggest you make paper chart of button layout, "practice" some simple songs, then try a few instruments.

If you are concerned with the sound, you need to buy middle range in good condition, very standard Trebble with steel reeds. Then you will be able to sell it, if not liked. Avoid later Wheatstones with aluminum reed shoes, avoid concertinas with brass reeds or riveted reeds. Avoid any rare instruments, and especially early ones. Don't fall for gold work, history or anything that doesn't suit the widest market of would-be buyers.

Other words, play safe. It means some $1500-2000.

Here's my melody line on my Tenor

and here's my chordal playing on my Tenor

My Jackie's sound

My 20 button brass reeds Lachenal, very old recording.

[Randy Stein]

The last 32 measures of the Bach Loure played on a 1937 rosewood Wheatstone

http://api.ning.com/files/l*hpmK*zUWgeQoigPsAIVc6P7eJgtcS8ERU9YrvQtKhAWjOafMjiGdMJdjjQJydFT7OiH7knGm38JFR998lLyM8JU9Ovx7K1/sectionofBachLoure.wav

[Dirge]

OK here's the music

 

Oh yes - well found!!

 

Here's a direct link to the Gigue that I reckoned would be especially challenging to the duet, due to the way it intermingles the different parts!

Well at the risk of having you say 'come on then, prove it' which I have no reply to because I am not going to do it, I'll tell you now, it doesn't look tricky at all having just played through it slowly. Most of it divides into L and R quite nicely, often keeping the parts intact, as it were. Making good use of the dreaded overlap of course; none of it's overly complex.

[Selah]

Thanks for your clarity! Do you know the measurement across the flat ends and the weight of various treble tenors? Any thoughts on the quality and mellowness of sound etc of specific vintage ones out there that you would suggest. Feel free to pM me directly though I think all these thoughts would be great for others to hear.

 

For a PA player all ECs are small, their size differs little and if you are playing sitting (as you should for classical music), weight matters none.

More important is the sound qualities, here you will not find uniformity. My Tenor sounds very mellow and round, but it doesn't work well with chords. My Jackie is more accordion than concertina, and harmony works way better.

I tried some Aeolas, supposedly the best out there, and was very unimpressed with it's sound, "screamy" and loud.

Many today's makers make concertinas specifically fitted for Irish Music in a Session, so the mark of sound quality is "loudness".

I'd suggest you make paper chart of button layout, "practice" some simple songs, then try a few instruments.

If you are concerned with the sound, you need to buy middle range in good condition, very standard Trebble with steel reeds. Then you will be able to sell it, if not liked. Avoid later Wheatstones with aluminum reed shoes, avoid concertinas with brass reeds or riveted reeds. Avoid any rare instruments, and especially early ones. Don't fall for gold work, history or anything that doesn't suit the widest market of would-be buyers.

Other words, play safe. It means some $1500-2000.

Here's my melody line on my Tenor

and here's my chordal playing on my Tenor

My Jackie's sound

My 20 button brass reeds Lachenal, very old recording.

 

I love the mellowness of your tenor-treble! SO, what kind of EC is it? Does it have an extended lower end? Did you say 48-k earlier?

Would you mind measuring across the flat ends for me? Minimal size and weight are really important factors for me in buying, so can't compare with a PI. Like apples and oranges...

 

May be narrowing the potential buy to 57k Maccann and 48-56k tenor treble -- both of course parallels my history of liking the "difficult to find". Anyone got measurements/wt for the above Maccann??

[Marien]

The last 32 measures of the Bach Loure played on a 1937 rosewood Wheatstone

http://api.ning.com/files/l*hpmK*zUWgeQoigPsAIVc6P7eJgtcS8ERU9YrvQtKhAWjOafMjiGdMJdjjQJydFT7OiH7knGm38JFR998lLyM8JU9Ovx7K1/sectionofBachLoure.wav

 

Nice, is it on a 48 button english system wheatstone?

[Marien]

are you really into concertina sound and it's suitability to classical music?

 

Micha,

 

Maybe you like it better if I add incorrect statements.

 

Of course the sound of a concertina is suitable to classical music. And I like the sound of it - although not for every sheet of music that crosses my table. I like to try out things on various instruments. Every instrument can add asomething new to a composition (even if it is its limitation). What instrument is nice, beautiful or suitable is just a personal thing.

 

I'ld say any instrument is suitable for classical music (correct correct). Even a typical folk instrument like a low whistle can play a bloody marvellous classical solo - not speaking about the beautiful sound of it in irish and scottish folk. If one low whistle may have reduced possibilities such as the diatonic scale and a limit to one octave. Music does not have to be complicated at all to be classical. Some simple solos can be done very nicely on a low whistle and if you want more, a group of flutes could play beautiful classical arrangements.

 

The concertina sound with one reed per button sounding may be difficult for solo ball room concerts especially when everybody is talking and drinking. It does not fill up a room like a big accordian does with 5 reeds singing if you press only one key. But for a listening audience the concertina can sound very nice. It will give another atmosphere to the music.

 

One thing I like in the concertina sound is the sonority of one reed (if it is perfectly in concert pitch). It may be compared to the sound of a mouth organ played by Toots Thielemans, light and transparent.

 

Another thing is using chords on a concertina. I think that French music like written by Yann Thierssen for the movie Amely (a kind of classical) fits a concertina very well. It needs some chord play. To my taste these compositions fit a concertina better than a fully open Bandonion or Bayan.

 

Another sound of the concertina is the clarinet like snappy sound which to my idea is very suitable for classical music written for wind instruments and also for jazz.

 

Hoping not to be too correct ,

Marien