Classical on English vs Duet

[Selah]

What are upsides and downsides of playing classical music on 60k-80k MacCann duet compared to an English concertina.

What would the ideal number of buttons be for the latter?

Other newbies might be interested in your expertise with both systems for the challenging decision-making process!

Selah

[Daniel Hersh]

If you want to play melody only (or primarily the melody line, with occasional accompanying notes) you'll probably have an easier time on English. If you're aiming for a full-sounding accompaniment in addition to melody, then that's what a duet is designed to do.

 

However, I don't play either English or Maccann myself (I play Anglo and Hayden) so you'll want to consider others' opinions too.

 

What are upsides and downsides of playing classical music on 60k-80k MacCann duet compared to an English concertina.

What would the ideal number of buttons be for the latter?

Other newbies might be interested in your expertise with both systems for the challenging decision-making process!

Selah

[Randy Stein]

If you want to play melody only (or primarily the melody line, with occasional accompanying notes) you'll probably have an easier time on English. If you're aiming for a full-sounding accompaniment in addition to melody, then that's what a duet is designed to do.

 

However, I don't play either English or Maccann myself (I play Anglo and Hayden) so you'll want to consider others' opinions too.

 

What are upsides and downsides of playing classical music on 60k-80k MacCann duet compared to an English concertina.

What would the ideal number of buttons be for the latter?

Other newbies might be interested in your expertise with both systems for the challenging decision-making process!

Selah

I played/play classical music. I have adapted quite a bit of Kreisler and Bach. The ability to translate the music to fit the instrument works very well playing the EC. Especially some of the more musically complex pieces. When playing classically, there was very little chording so the concentration was on the nuances and phrasing of the piece.

I tried attaching page 7 from Wohlfahrt's Sixty Studies for Violin, Opus 45 but it will not let me. I will send to you personally. The three etudes each translate differently when played with proper phrasing of the bellows and both detached and legato. Try on both

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[Boney]

What Daniel says makes sense to me. The biggest difference is that the the melody is shared by both hands on the English, whereas it's played by the right hand only on the duet (leaving the left free to do whatever it wants). This essentially means that the English can play faster, wider-sweeping melodies, but the duet can play independent accompaniment and harmony not possible on the English. Of course, either can do both, and by creative arrangement and exceptional skill, sound much like the other. In any case, here's a few ideas of what may come more naturally to each:

 

Demanding solo violin transcriptions: English

Intermediate violin duets (on 1 concertina): Duet

 

Fluid, impressionistic pieces: English

Ooom-pa marches and waltzes: Duet

 

Need to creatively adapt music from other chorded instruments: English

Almost literal transcriptions (from piano, guitar, etc): Duet

 

Playing in a group: English

Playing solo: Duet

 

More portable, cheaper, and available: English

Easier to be considered proficient: English

More opportunities for complex arrangements: Duet

[m3838]

Demanding solo violin transcriptions: English

Perhaps

Intermediate violin duets (on 1 concertina): Duet

Disagree (you'll need to drop 2nd violin down an octave, and often duets are written in the same clef.)

 

Fluid, impressionistic pieces: English

Perhaps

Ooom-pa marches and waltzes: Duet

Agree

 

Need to creatively adapt music from other chorded instruments: English

True

Almost literal transcriptions (from piano, guitar, etc): Duet

Disagree due to very different feel between piano, guitar and concertina. Literal and even almost literal transcription from piano and especially from guitar will sound pitifully poor on concertina. Need to creatively adapt music from other chorded instruments, no matter what system you are adapting to.

 

Playing in a group: English

Playing solo: Duet

Disagree. English is just as much a solo instrument as Duet. Neither is currently presented as legitimate instrument, unfortunately.

 

More portable, cheaper, and available: English

Perhaps

Easier to be considered proficient: English

Sounds like it.

More opportunities for complex arrangements: Duet

Disagree.

Edited February 17, 2010 by m3838

[Boney]

Intermediate violin duets (on 1 concertina): Duet

Disagree (you'll need to drop 2nd violin down an octave, and often duets are written in the same clef.)

True, but I've tried it, and it works well. Maybe I should have said cello/violin duets though, or viola/violin. In any case, it's the idea I'm talking about, playing two completely independent parts at once.

 

Almost literal transcriptions (from piano, guitar, etc): Duet

Disagree due to very different feel between piano, guitar and concertina. Literal and even almost literal transcription from piano and especially from guitar will sound pitifully poor on concertina. Need to creatively adapt music from other chorded instruments, no matter what system you are adapting to.

Yes, you have to choose which notes to drop or emphasize, but it's pretty trivial to go from a piano score to a duet score that works for me. That's how I did my

arrangement, for example. The left-hand part is fairly simple and repetitive on duet (especially Hayden). To do a similar arrangement on English would be much trickier.

 

Playing in a group: English

Playing solo: Duet

Disagree. English is just as much a solo instrument as Duet. Neither is currently presented as legitimate instrument, unfortunately.

I suppose this one is just my opinion, but a melody with an independent accompaniment sounds much more to me like a "full" performance, requiring no additional backup. I'd actually want to play simpler if I did have backup. It's quite a bit trickier to get that "full" sound on an English.

 

More opportunities for complex arrangements: Duet

Disagree.

Maybe our only big disagreement, then. With the overlap and the independent roles for each hand, it seems clearly possible for me to do more on duet than English. For fun, I've made some "theoretical" arrangements on duet, which I can play only slowly, one hand at a time. These sometimes include moving chords with simultaneous bass/countermelody runs, for example pressing two buttons with one finger of the hand while the others play around those notes -- on both hands at the same time. If someone truly talented were to take advantage of all a duet could do, it could easily sound like four instruments.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Boney

[Dirge]

If you say 'classical' to me I would assume you are talking about playing from fully scored music almost all the time. I have a great admiration for 'real composers' and am not interested (read capable if you prefer) in butchering their work to make an 'arrangement', although I have no problem with using, say, an arrangement of an orchestral piece by a competent tradesman-type musician (The redoubtable Mr Stanley, for instance.) I wouldn't presume to do it myself, or consider 'classical music' to include such chimaeras. I'm certainly not going to take a piece of Bach, cut half the notes and present it as JSB. It's the whole thing that made these people geniuses, not just the theme; they stole those all the time anyway...

 

As there is damn all music for the concertina, if you are going to use music written by the greats, what you can consider will depend on the range of your instrument. If you have a limited range you play violin, or flute or somesuch music; you have to because you can't fill the bass out. I have said elsewhere that I think the basic characteristics of a concertina mean playing violin music is a mug's game; misses the whole point of the thing; gives away all the squeezeboxes' strengths to play music that calls for non-existant properties. It's playing chords and polyphony with ease that is the 'USP' of the concertina. You need keyboard, guitar or the like music for best results, I strongly believe.

 

These are my views. Music being what it is no doubt others disagree, but, if you grant me these points, then the rest is simple logic.

 

You'll need a big instrument to get the range to do this properly. Larger Englishes were more expensive than Maccans of similar range last time I looked. Maccan system was invented and sold in numbers as an improvement on the 'old' system. I don't think anyone could argue with that. And that is what it is. So, a better instrument for less money. Bargain.

[oggie]

The English Concertina was originally an expensive concert instrument aimed at the wealthier middle and upper classes for whom reading music was one of the skills of life. There is also a body of nineteenth century classical music written for the English (by Regondi for example).

 

The practice of adapting/arranging classical pieces for other istruments other than the original one is also a long and honourable one and in some cases was even done by the original composers.

 

There is then a whole tradition of sacred and brass band music that utilised the instrument. In fact it is arguable that the use of the English Concertina for "folk" music is a phenonamem of the folk revival of the second half of the twentieth century,

 

Steve

[maccannic]

I have heard classical played on Maccann, Crane and Hayden duets of various sizes (I've never knowingly heard a Jefferies duet).

 

I take Dirge's point about not wishing to butcher the classics, but realistically the arrangement is going to be key. The more buttons you've got, the less you'll have to compromise, but even a smaller machine can give a good account of many classical pieces, especially if you include e.g. Joplin or Sousa in the definition of classical.

 

My Maccann has three and a half octaves, so the limitations for e.g. piano or organ music are obvious, but I believe you can suggest the essence of a piece without playing all the original notes and without butchering it.

[Randy Stein]

Dirge Wrote: <butchering their work to make an 'arrangement>

You are correct that utilizing the original violin score translates easily to the concertina. But in that case one is "adapting" more than "arranging". I have arrangements of classical pieces that I have done as well some by Boris Matueswich. They work because you maintain the melody line of the piece and do not over do the chording. In these cases phrasing becomes important. But the piece is different because of it's "arrangement".

I concertized for years with piano accompaniment. I also worked with piano accordion and I currently am working with guitar accompaniment. However, when I play solo, I play the main violin/cello line of a piece and it still works well and I do receive audience appreciation.

Let me contrast two classical pieces I play: The Entertainer by Joplin and Loure by J S Bach. The first, an arrangement from the piano score,works nicely on the EC. The second is taken directly from the violin score and with some adaptation to phrasing and note patterns, stays true to the music.

The Duet offers a full sound and has the ability to be much more adaptable to arrangements but does change the musical context when doing so...which is okay and can be very cool...if played well.

Is there ever a venue for the concertinists of the world to unite and play?

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[Marien]

If you want to play melody only (or primarily the melody line, with occasional accompanying notes) you'll probably have an easier time on English. If you're aiming for a full-sounding accompaniment in addition to melody, then that's what a duet is designed to do.

 

However, I don't play either English or Maccann myself (I play Anglo and Hayden) so you'll want to consider others' opinions too.

 

What are upsides and downsides of playing classical music on 60k-80k MacCann duet compared to an English concertina.

What would the ideal number of buttons be for the latter?

Other newbies might be interested in your expertise with both systems for the challenging decision-making process!

Selah

 

It is all highly subjective. My idea is that the Duet (while it allows you to play all kinds of chords) is also very suitable for melody solo.

[TonyRussell]

I agree with the last couple of posts (sorry Dirge) but the answer to your original question depends on which system is most intuitive for you. I play plenty classical pieces on EC despite acknowledging the greater range of most duets.

Here's an anecdote that shows how your brain can overcome many limitations of the instrument; round about 1970 an American guy called Peter Persoff came to tour British Isles, bought an anglo and started to learn it, spending hours every day. In his travels he absorbed styles and tunes so when, after 6 months, he got to NE England (Tyneside) he was VERY good! He heard me play "Abide With Me" on a bass EC and two weeks later played virtually the same arrangement on his anglo - including the counterpoints.

So, if you get on with EC it'll do what you want, if duet is your thing - same applies. Best wishes, Tony

Edited February 17, 2010 by TonyRussell

[Irene S.]

I have heard classical played on Maccann, Crane and Hayden duets of various sizes (I've never knowingly heard a Jefferies duet).

 

Try Gavin Atkin's rendition of a piece by Fernando Sor on Youtube

(There's also another classical rendition on his channel there)

[m3838]

More opportunities for complex arrangements: Duet

Disagree.

Maybe our only big disagreement, then. With the overlap and the independent roles for each hand, it seems clearly possible for me to do more on duet than English. For fun, I've made some "theoretical" arrangements on duet, which I can play only slowly, one hand at a time. These sometimes include moving chords with simultaneous bass/countermelody runs, for example pressing two buttons with one finger of the hand while the others play around those notes -- on both hands at the same time. If someone truly talented were to take advantage of all a duet could do, it could easily sound like four instruments.

 

 

 

The others are just a matter of opinion and skill, but the above one is not. The premise is that the more notes you can play, the more complex arrangement it becomes is false. The example is Duets arrangements, be it Bach or Mozart, for two violins or two flutes. These arrangements are often very complex melodically and harmonically (strange word, isn't it?), but it's just two melodies together. Another example of single "keyboard" instrument with full sound is guitar. We all have heard outstanding solo performances, but it takes two hands to play one melody on guitar, is it Violin concertos are more complex music than a Polka with Oompa. Probably selecting terminology will be handy here.

The biggest difference there might be the player's feel of the music. While Duet player may feel and hear two parts, English player feels and plays one piece of music.

And it all depends on what the person who asked the question means.

Edited February 17, 2010 by m3838

[Boney]

The premise is that the more notes you can play, the more complex arrangement it becomes is false.

No, it's not the number of notes I'm talking about, it's the variety of combinations of notes. The English layout limits what combinations of notes or melodies can be played simultaneously more than the duet. Give me a harmonized melody, and I have more freedom to interpret it on duet, adding low chords, bass runs, or harmony without having to worry about how it may affect the fingering of the melody.

 

For simple arrangements, the difference is small. But when you start getting into complex arrangements, the duet just has more possibilities.

[m3838]

I have heard classical played on Maccann, Crane and Hayden duets of various sizes (I've never knowingly heard a Jefferies duet).

 

Try Gavin Atkin's rendition of a piece by Fernando Sor on Youtube

(There's also another classical rendition on his channel there)

 

Yes, it's one of the recordings that changed my mind about Duets.

I compared it to guitar pieces and can't even stand concertina rendition.

It sounds like a classical music played on a toy. A novelty act for laughs.

No control of the sound whatsoever.

But the player's skill is very good and the piece played very well. It's the concertina and adaptation that didn't befriend each other. Clearly two pieces butted against each other, and clearly both are handicapped. May be different pressure was needed for different reeds to sound, resulting with evenness from both sides. I have a feel that if this particular piece is played on English, it would sound better, as the two parts will be blended by feel and player's mind will not be preoccupied with the need of playing two instruments at the same time and with the same bellows. Very good example.

[m3838]

The premise is that the more notes you can play, the more complex arrangement it becomes is false.

No, it's not the number of notes I'm talking about, it's the variety of combinations of notes. The English layout limits what combinations of notes or melodies can be played simultaneously more than the duet. Give me a harmonized melody, and I have more freedom to interpret it on duet, adding low chords, bass runs, or harmony without having to worry about how it may affect the fingering of the melody.

 

For simple arrangements, the difference is small. But when you start getting into complex arrangements, the duet just has more possibilities.

 

I can agree with your point, if we are talking about very big Duet. The limitation of the range plays big part when it comes to combinations and possibilities..

When you play both sides on a sizable Duet, each side has something like 2.5 octaves max. (unless we talking about unyealding 80 button Macanns). So you need to either play Duet like an English, blending both parts together or get on with smallish range.

An advantage of an English system is that it has far bigger working range because when you blend parts together they have equal access to all of the instrument.

One can argue that 2.5 octaves is more than enough and I agree. But looks like right sides of Macann and Crane begin with middle C. One octave up and the timbre becomes too squeaky. English system specifically favors middle spectrum. Anglo, for this reason, is often played between both ends.

My small Jackie has melodic range of pretty large Duet.

[Dirge]

 

I can agree with your point, if we are talking about very big Duet. The limitation of the range plays big part when it comes to combinations and possibilities..

When you play both sides on a sizable Duet, each side has something like 2.5 octaves max. (unless we talking about unyealding 80 button Macanns). So you need to either play Duet like an English, blending both parts together or get on with smallish range.

 

But you do. It's a major step in playing well to get away from any idea that 'this hand is melody, this hand is accompaniment'. If it suits smooth play best to play the top note of a chord in the LH with the low notes, and the overlap permits, you do. It often works best in polyphony to split the hands by which voices are moving together, so one hand does held notes while the other does, eg, the parallel thirds in the middle, or whatever is needed without reference to 'higher' or 'lower'.

 

An advantage of an English system is that it has far bigger working range because when you blend parts together they have equal access to all of the instrument.

 

Well that's technically true and actually pretty useless.

 

One can argue that 2.5 octaves is more than enough and I agree.

 

Nice that you're content. I wouldn't and wouldn't.

 

But looks like right sides of Macann and Crane begin with middle C. One octave up and the timbre becomes too squeaky.

 

Honestly Misha! And anyway if anything's well supplied with squeakers it's the average English

 

English system specifically favors middle spectrum.

That'll be why a decent duet has an octave of overlap to facilitate fancy play in this area then. And didn't the English system favour playing things 3 octaves too high a moment ago?

 

Anglo, for this reason, is often played between both ends.

I see. And? No actually I don't care about this one.

 

My small Jackie has melodic range of pretty large Duet.

 

4 1/2 octaves on my 67. But I find it's all about bass notes for playing classical. They are disproportionately important. G on the bottom line of the bass stave? NB mine has the F below but I didn't want to be too hard on you.