Selah

I appreciate your specific answers to my confusion! It's hard to ask clear questions with limited understanding (my fogginess...) of this new "tina/music language". I do get stuck on details instead of just getting on with it. Most simply, I didn't want to begin only to need to soon re-learn something vital when the learning curve in the "second 50 yrs" already seems so steep! Happy to begin again...

This IS my first and only concertina. I am your #2 -- don't like the the high notes and love the deep rich ones. Some folks discouraged my beginning with a baritone but I must have missed understanding "why not" (perhaps this is it!), BUT I knew I wouldn't last long hearing myself learning on a treble. When you speak of a baritone's "full range", are you speaking of a 48k, an extended model, or both? The above recommendation to "learn to play the upper treble tones on your baritone, i.e., in their correct pitch [...using the lower tones to harmonize]" means to me to play the "actual Mid-C on R side" leaving more equal number notes on either side for greater use of the baritone range. Did I miss the boat here? Would one not be missing using a baritone's full range by simply playing it like a treble? That asked, bear with my ignorance a moment. I am assuming that we are talking of "pretending" baritone's mid-C is on the left hand (when that is actually "C below mid-c") rather than using the actual mid-c which then switches to the R side. When you speak of "learning both ways and choosing the instrument according to the music", is this what you mean -- learn both "pretend and actual"?? Simply transposing the music for the need seems a lofty goal but this may be where I'm complicating my beginning point. For the sake of other newbies who thought they remembered something of music from their childhoods but didn't, I now realize I am a total beginner in all realms. I have to say that you all may have no idea how much you've know and understand about concertinas and music!

My advice, as a baritone and treble player, is to learn to play the upper treble tones on your baritone, i.e., in their correct pitch. This will mean a reversal of the fingering positions that you would use on the treble instrument. Then use the lower notes - the baritone range, to fill out with harmonies. Look at Mark Gilston's videos on YouTube for superb examples of the use of the baritone in this way. Beats the range of a TenorTreble anyday! Forgive me, I just realised that you asked in the topic title about the layout of the keyboard. Here's a link to a posting by Geoffrey Crabb, where you'll find a full explanation of the ranges of different English concertinas. http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11014&st=0&p=110084&fromsearch=1entry110084 Good luck. John John! Playing the baritone this way makes total sense BUT in practice very challenging for me. Although I'm attempting to create my own diagram to play my little baritone (transposed Wheatstone), I am frustrated by my confusion in doing so. My brain is having a hard time converting that the notes in the spaces are now on the left, and the notes on the lines on the right... I seem to need keyboard, notes and scale on one page as a visual for it to make sense. Ever seen one? Hoping so, Selah

Do any baritone players out there have a copy of "The Baritone Concertina: A New Method" by George Case, London: Boosey & Sons, 1857? I need a better visual than any I've come up with so far!

My advice, as a baritone and treble player, is to learn to play the upper treble tones on your baritone, i.e., in their correct pitch. This will mean a reversal of the fingering positions that you would use on the treble instrument. Then use the lower notes - the baritone range, to fill out with harmonies. Look at Mark Gilston's videos on YouTube for superb examples of the use of the baritone in this way. Beats the range of a TenorTreble anyday! Forgive me, I just realised that you asked in the topic title about the layout of the keyboard. Here's a link to a posting by Geoffrey Crabb, where you'll find a full explanation of the ranges of different English concertinas. http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11014&st=0&p=110084&fromsearch=1entry110084 Good luck. John

By fingering numbers you mean using L1, L2 L3, etc for each note?

if i'm not mistaken, the concertina you have is an english concertina. noel hill teaches and plays the anglo concertina, which are very, very different. the anglo concertina = rife with pitfalls and dark, scary alleys. the english concertina = a safe walk through your local park. no value judgement intended--i'm a devoted and faithful anglo player, At the moment the english isn't feeling like a "safe walk in the park" but I did think it would be an easier learn than anglo. I did discover after posting that Noel Hill played anglo -- fabulous musician!

I've just purchased a Wheatstone baritone (transposed) as my first concertina!! I'm "out-of-the-box challenged" self-learning via tutors and don't want to have to re-learn bad techniques. A tutor for a baritone would be invaluable if it exists! I just read a CNet thread from a Noel Hill workshop participant who talked of a "different fingering chart" that he felt was "key to playing the music properly while having full control over the entire instrument". Thoughts, experience, advice please.

My advice, as a baritone and treble player, is to learn to play the upper treble tones on your baritone, i.e., in their correct pitch. This will mean a reversal of the fingering positions that you would use on the treble instrument. Then use the lower notes - the baritone range, to fill out with harmonies. Look at Mark Gilston's videos on YouTube for superb examples of the use of the baritone in this way. Beats the range of a TenorTreble anyday! Forgive me, I just realised that you asked in the topic title about the layout of the keyboard. Here's a link to a posting by Geoffrey Crabb, where you'll find a full explanation of the ranges of different English concertinas. http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11014&st=0&p=110084&fromsearch=1entry110084 Good luck. John John, Thanks for the link -- definitely helpful in knowing that I have a transposed baritone. Your suggestion sounds like a good idea for better use of its range. My only hesitancy to begin playing this way is 2-fold: 1)I'm pretty visual, so playing the upper ranges of a treble on my baritone flips my brain when trying to adapt using the tutors to learn the mere basics. 2)At some point I think I'd like to get a baritone-treble which then switches the mid-C to the other side. Seems to complicate matters... Any suggestions/support for a tina newbie is most welcome! I will be needing more than luck, believe me.

Larry, I've heard a treble with silver reeds and it had a wonderfully sweet sound. Is yours 5 or 6 bellows? Those lowest notes can be slow to come on to my beginner's touch. All baritone ins are appreciated.

I'm now a newbie WITH a concertina to begin playing. Just received my little 48-k Wheatstone hex baritone. Although I'm beginning simply learning to play as a treble, my head is having a hard time wrapping around the differences in playing it truly as a baritone, as with reading bass clef. Any links out there to provide visuals like in treble/tenor tutors? Thanks!

G/D Anglo is probably closer to Tenor, rather Baritone. A C/G octave lower than standard C/G would be Baritone. A matter of perspective: In the standard terminology, a "baritone" is an octave lower than "the usual" (treble English, C/G anglo, etc.), so what is normally called a "baritone anglo" is lower than a standard G/D anglo, and an octave lower than a standard C/G. But in terms of range, a standard G/D anglo has the same bottom note as a "baritone" English, and a standard C/G anglo has the same lowest note as a "tenor" (or "tenor-treble") English, though a 30-button anglo will have some gaps in the scale toward the bottom. Not so. While demand for tenor and baritone Englishes may be less than for trebles, the supply seems to be smaller by an even greater factor. Dealers rarely have baritones or even tenor-trebles in stock, and they rarely if ever go unsold when they show up on eBay. They also tend to sell for noticeably higher prices than comparable trebles. And here I thought that Selah was looking for an instrument to play, not one to sell. Absolutely -- First buy and that will be SOON!! Then LEARN to play! All your many helpful, and often contrasting, comments have been much appreciated! I have a long ways to go so will be back with more questions in the future.

Your observation is correct. With Baritone you will have lesser dynamics. There are tricks to start low reeds to speak at low pressure, but generally for fuller range of expression you need Treble. Push-pull can be an issue too, as the same pitch is produced by two reeds. They simply can't be in perfect unison. Bellows is at work too. Pulling/pushing too hard will change the pitch of the reed. Annoying fact. So much it is a problem, that Regondi in his tutor recommends NOT using bellows to accentuate notes, but instead double them in octaves every time you need an accent. Your email clarified Dana's nicely. Thank you!! Judy

Poor use of words here... To clarify the original question(s): This pertains to the concern of "integrity of pitch" is during the push-pull of the bellows which a player introduced during my search and research. With my limited knowledge I did not know if this was bellow # factor, a reed issue, something to expect more from a baritone than a cause to not buy, or something else entirely.