DialMfor... Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Hello there, I'm looking to buy a concertina for a friend, though unfotunately I know very little about instruments so would appreciate a bit of advice. I've been reading through the newbie-threads for the past hour-and-a-half so have managed to get some information, though there are other things I'm still not sure on! From what I've read, I understand the technical difference between the Anglo and English style instruments, but am not sure what's best for my friend (it's a surprise gift so asking her is a no-no I'm afraid!) However she likes folkie music, particularly Balkan influenced folk. My budget is strict and not huge (no more than £180) so based on that I think the Stephanelli 30-key Anglo seems to fit the bill, based purely on what I've read. I know the Rochelle is highly rated, but bottom line is I can't stretch to one so, sadly, it's just not an option! My friend is a complete novice, though does play some other instruments well. I imagine she will just use it to play-around and experiement a bit, so I'm hoping the Stephanelli will be suitable for her to get the basics and progress a little way before deciding if she'd like to upgrade further down the line. Any input or advice on any of the above would be greatly appreciated! Many thanks, James. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Stout Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Those that I know of who play Balkan music on concertina play English concertina rather than anglo. (Names that come to mind are Rachel Hall and Mark Gilston.) The tunes in the balkan workshops I've been to (at Folk College in Pennsylvania, often led by Gordon Bonnet, who plays flute) have complicated rhythms and a lot of accidentals. I think that the somewhat easier layout for chromatic music of the EC might be easier. That said, I don't play an anglo and I've only played a little Balkan music. Love those 15/16, 11/16, 25/16, 7/8 and 9/8 rhythms! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DialMfor... Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 Those that I know of who play Balkan music on concertina play English concertina rather than anglo. (Names that come to mind are Rachel Hall and Mark Gilston.) The tunes in the balkan workshops I've been to (at Folk College in Pennsylvania, often led by Gordon Bonnet, who plays flute) have complicated rhythms and a lot of accidentals. I think that the somewhat easier layout for chromatic music of the EC might be easier. That said, I don't play an anglo and I've only played a little Balkan music. Love those 15/16, 11/16, 25/16, 7/8 and 9/8 rhythms! Thanks for the reply, though I have to say that last sentence may as well have been written in ancient Sanskrit to me :-P Is the difference between Anglo and English something that will set the style of music one can play in stone, or are they both reasonably versatile? The Stephanelli Anglo one seems to be the best I can afford as far as I can tell, but if it's going to point my friend down a musical path in contrast to her current instrumental tastes, I might have to look at another model! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I'm looking to buy a concertina for a friend, though unfotunately I know very little about instruments so would appreciate a bit of advice. Here's my advice. DON'T just buy your friend an instrument. Do you think she'll be pleased if you get her something that proves to be unsuitable? Consider giving her a "gift certificate" for "one concertina", which she can then help to choose when she redeems the certificate. It's possible that she might even want to add some money of her own to get something slightly better than what you can afford alone. As for which type of concertina: If she wants to play Balkan dance tunes, but only single-line melody (or harmony), a 30-button anglo should be fine, though a 20-button wouldn't be. The 30-button should have all the necessary accidentals. For playing melody and chords at the same time, there might be problems on the anglo getting all the right notes for the chords while still playing the full melody. I can't think of anyone who plays Balkan on the anglo, but that doesn't mean that it can't be done, or that they don't exist. (I would be trying it right now on my own anglo, but I'm not at home at the moment.) Rachel and Mark both play Balkan on the English, and so do I (though only a little). You might want to listen to some of Mark's stuff on YouTube. There's a thread about his YouTube videos (not just Balkan) here on Concertina.net, where he's known as "Tradman". But a duet -- the Hayden-system Elise is worth considering -- would also be fine for Balkan. I've heard a couple of excellent cuts by Jean Megly on Crane duet, where he does both melody and chords. But I think you've indicated that Balkan is only one of her musical interests. Really, any of the three types should be fine, unless she finds some particular aspect of one of the kinds (e.g., different notes on push and pull for the anglo, or musically adjacent notes on opposite ends of the instrument for the English to be a problem. The above probably doesn't exactly narrow down your decision making , but in musical terms the Stephanelli isn't necessarily wrong. Unfortunately, I'm not personally familiar with the brand/model, so I can't give any advice regarding quality... except that the resale or trade-in value will likely be much less than the new price if she wants to upgrade. Whatever she gets, I hope she comes to enjoy it... and that we here may even eventually hear some of what she does with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 That said, I don't play an anglo and I've only played a little Balkan music. Love those 15/16, 11/16, 25/16, 7/8 and 9/8 rhythms! Thanks for the reply, though I have to say that last sentence may as well have been written in ancient Sanskrit to me :-P You read ancient Sanskrit, do you? Seriously, though, those numbers just mean that many Balkan tunes have a different feel from jigs, reels, waltzes, polkas and other Western European dances. When written down, they look complex, but I was dancing to those rhythms for years before I was informed of the "strange" time signatures, and so I couldn't be frightened or confused by them, because I already knew what they felt like. I would guess that your friend also knows. Is the difference between Anglo and English something that will set the style of music one can play in stone, or are they both reasonably versatile? As I indicated in my previous post (which I was writing as you were writing the one I'm now replying to), both of them and also duets are all quite versatile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I think you could get a second hand Rochelle or Jackie for your budget (I think) Concertinas are fairly tough and I wouldn't be scared of this option; indeed a higher quality but used instrument would be my preference to a new absolutely budget item, myself. I wonder if the Rochelle and Jackie are being traded in to dealer's hands often enough to be able to send her somewhere to choose between the two for herself? Where are you? The trouble is Anglo and English are very different instruments and everyone has to make this serious decision right at the start when it's hard enough to know what you want; we've all been there, so it's even worse choosing for someone else. From what you say I'd have thought an English might be a better bet. Lovely idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandstand Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Don't, Don't, Don't, Don't,Don't is my recommendation too. I have met three people over the years who have been given surprise concertinas. One never really, really wanted to put the hours and devotion into learning to play it, but felt guilty because of the generosity of the gift. One was given an anglo, struggled for a year or so, then realised what she needed for her personality and the music she wanted to play was an English. One was given a new Italian - type instrument, had musical background, soon realised her instrument was inferior to every single one belonging to every serious player she met, and had to buy a "proper" instrument. Our first instrument was bought from a "one off" seller. It was a very, very poor instrument. We didn't have help or advice in buying it, and later we used it as a part-payment for a good Aeola, loosing what was to us a lot of money in the process. Give her a piece of paper expressing your willingness to subsidise her purchase. make sure SHE thinks very hard about systems, devotion needed, music she'll play and what would suit her. Then ideally either go to a very well trusted dealer or an event like the Sunday Concertina Market at Concertinas at Witney UK (next one 26th September 2010),ideally with an experienced competent friend, or best of all find someone to lend her an instrument for 3 months. ps. Re-read first line of this reply! Jenny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DialMfor... Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) Some splendid (and detailed!) advice there, thank you all very much! Whilst I agree that a gift certificate or voucher is entirely the more sensible option, they do severely lack in the "wow!" factor department when getting to open an actual box with something new and shiny in You are correct Jim, Balkan is but one of her tastes, so perhaps I shouldn't focus too heavily on that one. And, yes, my Sanksrit is rusty; cretan hieroglyphics and txt tlk are more my bag I'll trawl some forums to see if I can find a Rochelle or Jackie for similar money (I'm a little wary of eBay when buying anything that isn't earthquake proof) so fingers crossed that will turn something up! I'll be sure to direct my friend this way once she's found her concertina-feet, thank you all very much once again James P.S. Dirge, I'm in Cornwall in the UK, though quite far away from anywhere large or bustling with music shops. Saying that, Cornwall's music scene is pretty lively and varied, so there might be somewhere down here. Edited November 30, 2009 by DialMfor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geraghty Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) Whilst I agree that a gift certificate or voucher is entirely the more sensible option, they do severely lack in the "wow!" factor department when getting to open an actual box with something new and shiny in James, How about both? Get your friend a couple of concertina CDs (maybe one english, one anglo?) and a note from you saying that you would like to donate X amount toward a concertina of her choice. Then she has shiny AND useful, and has some CDs to listen to to learn about different styles and help make her choice. I agree that she may want to put her own money together with your contribution to get something better than either of you can afford alone, and I would have hated it if someone had spent money on an instrument for me that really wasn't suitable. Edited November 30, 2009 by Geraghty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB-R Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) With regard to the Stephanelli, based on my experience of those and the Rochelle, (some time apart so not a direct comparison) the differences weren't that great, the main one being that in the Rochelle, the button spacing is "correct" whereas in the Stephanelli it is too wide. This could be less important for Anglo than with, say, English though. I'd say the Stephanelli would be fine for starting to learn the layout etc. As to trade-in etc, the Stephanelli is around at c£100. How much of a risk can that be! Ebay would surely get you a good chunk of that back if necesary. As to Anglo or English, a couple of points. - What else does your friend play? The often quoted advice is that sheet music readers do well with English. I think this is generally true. If she plays keyboards of any sort I'd suggest that points towards English. Winds and strings there's no telling. If she plays, or has got on well with harmonica, that could point towards Anglo. - If nothing is pulling her too strongly either way, a big point in favour of English is that nice vintage Englishes are cheaper than Anglos! Highly respected UK concertina dealer Chris Algar's site gives price ranges at http://www.concertina.co.uk/ [Edit] Whopping Great Big generalisation coming up!!! Classical background - English Folkie background - Anglo (Runs for cover!) Edited November 30, 2009 by TomB-R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kautilya Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 With regard to the Stephanelli, based on my experience of those and the Rochelle, (some time apart so not a direct comparison) the differences weren't that great, the main one being that in the Rochelle, the button spacing is "correct" whereas in the Stephanelli it is too wide. This could be less important for Anglo than with, say, English though. I'd say the Stephanelli would be fine for starting to learn the layout etc. As to trade-in etc, the Stephanelli is around at c£100. How much of a risk can that be! Ebay would surely get you a good chunk of that back if necesary. As to Anglo or English, a couple of points. - What else does your friend play? The often quoted advice is that sheet music readers do well with English. I think this is generally true. If she plays keyboards of any sort I'd suggest that points towards English. Winds and strings there's no telling. If she plays, or has got on well with harmonica, that could point towards Anglo. - If nothing is pulling her too strongly either way, a big point in favour of English is that nice vintage Englishes are cheaper than Anglos! Highly respected UK concertina dealer Chris Algar's site gives price ranges at http://www.concertina.co.uk/ [Edit] Whopping Great Big generalisation coming up!!! Classical background - English Folkie background - Anglo (Runs for cover!) WAIT! BORROW and try out Make the surprise wow factor a weekend at one of the gatherings of tina players. e.g. http://www.wccp.co.uk/ WCCP has a few spare boxes you can try. They will go out of their way to help a beginner, and easier for one with some musical knowledge. Ring em up and talk to em. They are not SO far from you. Sanskrit apart (ancient by definition...) no one wants to see you wearing musical pyjamas (Persian roughly deriving from "an arm and a leg...") back to front -- coz you did not know what they were for to start with and paid too much and could not take em back). As a still learning concertina beginner with a little musical knowledge (school orchestra violin at six and polyphony) I back those who say you MUST let your friend have a go first.... honest! As pointed out, Anglos are push for one note and pull for another (like harmonica). If your friend has trouble patting head and polishing chest at same tame then that's one problem to be tackled. 20 Anglo buttons (21 with air release button) won't give enough sharp and flat notes (accidentals and all that) for fancy note slithering mountain toons from Qafasan. The English has loads more buttons and plays the same note on a button whether you pushin' or pullin' -- but the buttons are not laid out in a straight line like a piano keyboard. Try try try and then only let THEM buy (and you cough up the lute!) (Now: -- the word lute may have come to us from Sanskrit, via Farsi/Arabic, but that's a whole new thread and someone may hijack this gift debate by starting it!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DialMfor... Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) Some Sanskrit's more ancient than others though, and I was of course referring to Rigvedic Sanskrit Incidentally, said friend is half-Iranian and, though a Farsi speaker, tells me Lute comes from "Wood" or something, in Arabic? Anyhoo, thanks for the input, though I've been kindly offered something for a Jackie English concertina at a reasonable price, so that's looking like a goodie! Edited November 30, 2009 by DialMfor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saguaro_squeezer Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) Why not use a bit of the money to pay for an outing to a good music shop to try out a couple of different concertinas? Or, since you're in Cornwall, I'd imagine you could contact the WCCP for advice and assistance. (Saw them mentioned in a previous thread, REALLY NICE PEOPLE!), A good side-by-side comparison would be most useful for your friend. Be prepared for a possible change of direction as she begins to play, though. That said, as I started on a Jack, I'd say a Jackie is a good choice ... well, until you get to needing a lot of accidentals. Lucky girl, that friend of yours!!! Edited November 30, 2009 by saguaro_squeezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kautilya Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 (edited) Read my fingering! (with apologies to Bush snr) the word lute MAY [i said MAY]have come to us from Sanskrit via Farsi/Arabic... I ain't committing to anything here..... The great thing of course it that no one seems able to say definitively where Sanskrit came from anyway, but my money is on the ancient Welsh with Celtic overtones due to the spread of Celtic tunes by the Basque sailors who had weekend breaks away in Mohenjodaro between World Cups in Germany. It is quite clear from Jones (Jones the Indian not Jones the Singer). The Scots reference here is coz they are.... wait and I quote Wikiunknownanswers: All Scots are Celts but not all Celts are Scots http://www.abdn.ac.uk/german/course_documentation/gm1512/week1.hti Edited November 30, 2009 by Kautilya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFox Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I came to the concertina, later in life than I wish I had! One thing that got me when I started to play, was the weight and strain on the little fingers and thumbs (English)- so maybe consider a neckstrap too. And don't forget to get something, box or padded bag, to protect and safely carry your gift! Concertina's are a great investment, so money spent on this gift is not lost - and could be transferred to a better or different instrument should the young lady desire it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catty Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 (edited) From what you say I'd have thought an English might be a better bet. Lovely idea. I concur...English Edited December 1, 2009 by catty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DialMfor... Posted December 5, 2009 Author Share Posted December 5, 2009 Hello again all, I've managed to get a Jackie English concertina for a reasonable price from one of the kind members on the board (I'll leave it up to him or her to decide whether they want to share the cost with you all) so I'm very pleased indeed, hopefully my friend will be too! My sincerest thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread with advice, it made what at first seemed a very daunting idea very straightforward. Whilst this wasn't the reason for my signing up here, I'm currently writing a dissertation on internet forum culture, and this place is a splendid example of a friendly and helpful message board, so certainly somewhere that will be referenced in my work. I'll try and encourage my friend to sign up on here, if not, I'll post something myself as to how she's getting along after the holidays. Thank you all once again, I hope you each have a fantastic Christmas and New Year! James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saguaro_squeezer Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 As I'd said, "lucky girl, that friend of yours!" She'll find lots of good counsel here. Also with the WCCP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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