ETM, ITM and what we're missing in this debate

[Jim Besser]

It seems to me this whole debate over "which is best for..." misses a key point.

 

Musical genres differ not just in the tunes, but by style.

 

The style in Irish music has become very particular, especially when it comes to concertinas. If you are an admirer of that style and want to emulate it, you can't play an English or a duet, and you'll have to play a C/G. That doesn't mean you can't play Irish tunes perfectly well on a G/D, but you'll never sound like the leaders in this particular style.

 

English music is much looser. People play in a variety of styles, with different instruments. Given the keys most tunes are played in, a G/D often is the best choice, but you don't have to play one to fit in nicely. Pick a collection of English dance band CDs, and you'll hear all kinds of concertinas (not to mention tubas, barrel organs, whatever ) giving very different sounds.

 

I play American contra dance music in addition to Morris. That's another very loose genre. There are great English players, Duet players, C/Gs, G/Ds, D/As. Being a loose music genre, George Marshall's smooth English concertina in Wild Asparagus and Jody Kruskal's punchy Anglo in Grand Picnic are equally acceptable. There is no standardized, proper concertina sound in contra dance music that people emulate.

 

In ITM, there seems to be a very specific sound people crave, and the C/G Anglo is the only way to get it. In ETM and some other forms, there's no specific style, and concertina players are free to choose the instrument type and keys that best suit and please them.

 

Just my deflated 2 cents.

[Guest Peter Laban]

I think you assume more uniformity in Irish concertina playing than exists in reality.

[Dave Weinstein]

To the degree that there is one "accepted" style for concertina in Irish Music, this is both a modern occurence, and, in my opinion, a terrible thing.

 

Traditional music has always had regional variations and personal interpretations -- prior to the ready access to recorded music, there wasn't an alternative. I've never liked the notion of "playing just like Famous Musician X" plays. If I want to hear them, they have recordings, and may come by in a concert. Bring something of yourself to the music.

[yankeeclipper]

To the degree that there is one "accepted" style for concertina in Irish Music, this is both a modern occurence, and, in my opinion, a terrible thing.

 

Traditional music has always had regional variations and personal interpretations -- prior to the ready access to recorded music, there wasn't an alternative. I've never liked the notion of "playing just like Famous Musician X" plays. If I want to hear them, they have recordings, and may come by in a concert. Bring something of yourself to the music.

 

I totally agree. Recorded music has a tendency to freeze in amber (or CD) what should be a living, evolving tradition. For example, 'country' and 'bluegrass' music was narrowed and largely frozen by radio and recording technology. Where once a traditional song might have had hundreds of local and regional versions, the Carter Family became a standard of "authenticity" that displaced many interesting variations. Yes, the Carters were good, but they weren't the only game in town - until their records made them so.

 

Any musical genre which sets 'standards' and 'authenticity' above freedom and creativity is on the slippery slope toward atrophy. It is ironic that the music of an island race noted for individualism should become so regimented that it can be summed up with an acronym.

[Guest Peter Laban]

But I (obviously) don't think there's 'one accepted style'. Yvonne Griffin, Dympna O Sullivan, Brid Meaney, Mary MacNamara are all 'modern' players and all from Clare, yet I would feel they play very different styles.

 

I wouldn't consider playing across the rows 'a style' (just in case you're getting at that). I remember Yvonne G. saying she was very grateful to Noel Hill for opening up the rows for her (that's the way she put it) but her music doesn't sound anywhere like his.

 

It would ofcourse be easy to throw out another batch of 'modern' names and add a load of other 'styles' to the list. I mean, there's plenty of stylistic variety if you look around with an open eye, even without looking at older players like Tom Carey, Chris Droney, Gerald Haugh (just to name a few who are still around).

[Anglo-Irishman]

I think you assume more uniformity in Irish concertina playing than exists in reality.

And I think he can be excused for making that assumption!

The impression that the ITM players on this list give us is that to play a given tune properly, you have cut a certain note on a certain button with the note on a certain other button. And if you're going to do that, and have the tune come out in the same key, you have to have a concertina in the same keys as the person you're emulating.

 

Maybe this is not so, but that's the impression. It would be nice to think that at least some ITM anglo players play decorations by feel, the way fiddlers and fluters do, because it's in the nature of the instrument!

 

Cheers,

John

[JimLucas]

It is ironic that the music of an island race noted for individualism should become so regimented that it can be summed up with an acronym.

It would indeed be ironic if that had happened, but it hasn't (at least not yet), in spite of the efforts of a few individuals to claim (or force?) otherwise.

 

I like playing Irish music (among other kinds), to the best of my ability. I neither play nor care about IT-uM.

Edited November 29, 2009 by JimLucas

[Dirge]

I think Jim Besser's post seems a very sensible summary. It's why, of the 2 discussions about suitable instruments, the 'ETM' one is still going while the ITM one has stalled. There's actually something to talk about in the live one.

 

Peter L; you want to try imagining you are not particularly smitten with ITM and perhaps a little fed up with its practitioners telling you how great it is. NOW consider the music and you might understand why it all seems the same to a lot of people.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Dirge

[Guest Peter Laban]

Peter L; you want to try imagining you are not particularly smitten with ITM and perhaps a little fed up with its practitioners telling you how great it is. NOW consider the music and you might understand why it all seems the same to a lot of people.

 

I don't see what this has to do with the present thread to be honest. Feel free to like and dislike as you see fit, you won't, on the other hand see me make proclamations about stylistic issues regarding, say, Morris or other types I have at best a passing interest in.

[hjcjones]

It's not so much a question of "it all sounds the same", however the Irish players all seem to be working within a broadly similar style. That is not to say there are not individual interpretations of that style, but that the players are all working in a similar framework - mostly playing a bare melody, with ornamentation but relatively little chording. Differences between individuals may not be immediately apparent to a casual listener.

 

We know little about traditional English anglo styles, because so few of the players were around when the folk revival started to take an interest, but the differences in the styles of William Kimber and Scan Tester, for example, will be immediately apparent to most listeners.

 

Revival players tended to evolve a style of their own, because there were few recordings and fewer living examples to model themselves on. As time passes, more revival players are basing their styles on older revival players, rather than traditional sources. A more uniform style is gradually developing, but it is still much less defined than the Irish style.

 

There is also a difference in attitude. The old players are respected, but relatively few players (there are some) deliberately model their style on them. Instead they will take influences from all sorts of sources, including traditional players but also modern players who have extended the possibilities of the instruments.

 

Finally, the Irish music scene can sometimes be a bit "precious" about the music (although this tends to be more from non-Irish players outside Ireland, in my experience). Perhaps because we no longer had a viable tradition to preserve, in England we set about (but in a very unstructured and ad hoc way) re-creating a new tradition which includes and develops from the old. You won't get discussions about the suitability of this or that in English Country Dance Music, because they're not issues.

 

I'm not saying this is better or worse, simply that there are big differences between ITM and ETM which go beyond style.

[david_boveri]

In ITM, there seems to be a very specific sound people crave, and the C/G Anglo is the only way to get it.

 

there is a little known secret that noel hill (often cited as the originator of said sound) played for many, many years on a G/D anglo concertina. i have heard some players on english concertina make a great, bouncy sound that sounded the same as an anglo. so, clearly you are mistaken.

[david_boveri]

I think you assume more uniformity in Irish concertina playing than exists in reality.

 

i agree with you, here. there is an oft referred to specific sound of irish music (which i even refer to in my previous post), but i think that this is at best, an illusory standard, as it is far from uniform.

[Guest Peter Laban]

It's not so much a question of "it all sounds the same", however the Irish players all seem to be working within a broadly similar style. That is not to say there are not individual interpretations of that style, but that the players are all working in a similar framework - mostly playing a bare melody, with ornamentation but relatively little chording. Differences between individuals may not be immediately apparent to a casual listener.

 

What you describe is the very nature of Irish music, not so much a 'style' . Styles exist within the melodic framework. That casual listeners aren't able to distinguish styles says nothing about styles but everything about why these listeners are called casual listeners.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Peter Laban

[michael sam wild]

Gerald of Wales , writing in the 13th Century in De Keltorum observed that the Irish delighted in fast linear melodies that could sound wearisome to those not familiar with that music and the Celts of Wales and Yorkshire were given to singing and playing in parts ( harmonies)

 

Not much difference then?

Edited November 30, 2009 by michael sam wild

[hjcjones]

With respect, Peter, I think you're missing the point. The matters you are discussing were covered in the "C/G for ITM" thread (and I think you put forward there a convincing argument that there are other styles and that C/G isn't necessarily the only option). The OP to this thread appeared to me to be taking a broader view, and if you take a step back there seems to be a general similarity of approach by all the different players, which as you say is as much the nature of Irish music as it is specific to concertina.

 

If we take this broader view, then it is possible to make the general distinction between "ITM" and "ETM" (I don't like either of these abbreviations, myself) concertina styles, which was the OP's original point

 

Having said this, I'm not entirely clear why the OP thought a separate thread was necessary, or what in fact we are "missing from this debate". The difference in national musical styles (as opposed to specifically concertina styles) is I should have thought self-evident - indeed since many tunes are common to Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh traditions and are of equally varied origins, it is style rather than material which is the principal way of differentiating between them.

[Guest Peter Laban]

I don't think I am missing the point. I do think the point doesn't deserve the amount of quibble it is getting by now.

[buikligger]

But I (obviously) don't think there's 'one accepted style'. Yvonne Griffin, Dympna O Sullivan, Brid Meaney, Mary MacNamara are all 'modern' players and all from Clare, yet I would feel they play very different styles.

 

 

Peter,

do you happen to have references for sound samples from Yvonne Griffin?

Much appreciated

 

Dirk

[Guest Peter Laban]

Peter,

do you happen to have references for sound samples from Yvonne Griffin?

Much appreciated

 

Dirk

 

No sorry, I have a tape I recorded during the mid eighties but I don't exactly know where it is (it's one of the unmarked ones) but I don't think I have anything later. Eoin O'Neill has recorded a few tracks of her which he plays on his Sunday morning program sometimes.

 

She'd be on top of my list though, great heart in her playing, brilliant.

 

Picture is ten years old too now.

 

Edited December 1, 2009 by Peter Laban