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ETM, ITM and what we're missing in this debate


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I play a lot with a friend, Mike Lydiat, who is an excellent guitarist. He has done a lot of work on the tunes of Carolan. The 'bible' by O'Sullivan only gives the melody lines and yet harpers do use chords. The harp is diatonically tuned and thus more 'limited' in its scope than the chords we have access to today.

 

Mike and others work out chords that suit themeselves, using various tunings and chord shapes. These may or may not please an audience and in that way are in the same positions as someone bringing a modern sensibility and musical education (in its broadest sense) to English traditional music.

 

I think the same thing is going on with Irish musical accompaniment whilst at the same time there is a revisiting of the well for the 'pure drop'

 

 

I would be very interested to hear what others think about the 'rules' that keep music acceptably within a tradition, whilst at the same time allowing the freedom for individual creativity.

 

 

is the Irish tradition one of variation and ornmamentation and individual virtuosity, whereas the harmonic tradition values chordal complexity ( or subtlety)

 

My personal reading on harmony is to inform my recent decision to learn more about using the Anglo for wider dtyles and genres than the Irish music which is my main musical focus.

 

It may bring me into internal conflict as regards singing . At the moment I sing mainly unaccompanied songs ( and have done since the 1950s) but I enjoy listening to all sorts of accompanied singing and have noticed over the years that solo singers don't get as much attention as those who play or are accompanied by instruments. Even source singers have not been listened to as widely as revivalist musicians with instrumental backing.

 

If harmonic playing is the direction in which traditional forms are moving what types of concertina will be the chosen instruments?

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I think of ITM as linear and ETM as vertical - as regards the importance of the melody line rather than the chordal structure- or, hopefully, the lack of one - in ITM.

 

As one who plays mostly English, I have to disagree. I think the chordal structure is incidental to English music. Besides, as often or not in a session people aren't playing the same chords - the natural chord choices on melodeon are sometimes quite different from what a guitarist or anglo player will use. The subtlety in English music comes from the rhythm, and in particular the little shifts and shuffles which go on within the main rhythmic structure. This is one of the reasons why English music is usually taken at a slower pace than Irish.

Edited by hjcjones
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Guest Peter Laban

The subtlety in English music comes from the rhythm, and in particular the little shifts and shuffles which go on within the main rhythmic structure. This is one of the reasons why English music is usually taken at a slower pace than Irish.

 

What you say there applies equally to Irish music ( and probably many other types of music) and is not in any way related to the speed it's played at.

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Peter, of course you're right, I wasn't suggesting that there aren't subtleties of rhythm in Irish music. However if I had to choose just one word to sum up Irish music, it would be ornamentation, whereas for English music it would be rhythm. It certainly wouldn't be the chordal structure, as David was suggesting, which tends to be fairly ad hoc and governed more by the idiosyncrasies of the instruments being played than any agreed harmonic structure. Some of the old melodeon players seemed to use their bass buttons more for percussion than harmony.

 

The best way I can describe it is that where an Irish musician would decorate a tune using ornamentation, an English musician would emphasise the rhythm. Often this is done by starting the note slightly before the beat, and then increasing the emphasis on the beat itself.

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Guest Peter Laban

I think we have fundamentally different viewpoints here. I would think (and most traditional musicians I know share that view) that the first and foremost quality of Irish (dance) music is rhythm. Rhythm and phrasing, everything else comes after that ornamentation is a function that emphasises, supports and varies the rhythm (and to an extend the melody).

 

I think looking at the music players who applied little or no ornamentation: the concertinaplaying of Mary Haren, the whistleplaying of Micho Russell, the piping of Tommy Reck even, the concertina playing of Kitty Hayes, shows that rhythm is at the heart of it.

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Howard

Wouldn't you say that a lot of the esteemed box players of the English folk revival do use enhanced chords and bass rather than those of the older players?

 

Peter

 

I'd be interested to know whether the older Irish players who played in the home keys of C/G etc used an more chords than those who use the newer 'system' which gets discussed here.. i am just beginning to experiment more with tunes in C on my C/G box, having focussed on D and cross row G etc up to now as I came later to the Anglo from button box and wanted to play with others in our local sessions where more 'standard' keys prevail when playing Irish, Scottish and English tunes.

As the G/D Anglo doesn't seem to have been too common in Ireland it's difficult to know how that would have been used. I still await with interest more info on Wm Mulally.

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Guest Peter Laban

Peter

 

I'd be interested to know whether the older Irish players who played in the home keys of C/G etc used an more chords than those who use the newer 'system' which gets discussed here.. i am just beginning to experiment more with tunes in C on my C/G box, having focussed on D and cross row G etc up to now as I came later to the Anglo from button box and wanted to play with others in our local sessions where more 'standard' keys prevail when playing Irish, Scottish and English tunes.

As the G/D Anglo doesn't seem to have been too common in Ireland it's difficult to know how that would have been used.

 

From what I have heard, some older players of the (German) concertina did play harmony notes and octaves to fill out the sound of the instrument.

 

Again: the German concertinas were not C/G

 

[links to some recordings removed]

Edited by Peter Laban
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Peter, of course rhythm is at the heart of any dance music. I'm not saying that rhythm is unimportant in Irish music. However Irish and English sessions have a different "feel" about them, and the feel of an English session is very largely about how the rhythms are used - sometimes the actual melody will disappear completely.

 

However my comment was not intended to start a debate about differences or similarities between Irish and English music. Rather, it was directed more towards David's comment that he saw English music in terms of chord structure. Now it's true that harmony features heavily in an English music session, especially if you compare it with an Irish session. But it's not structured - what chords are being played will often depend on the instrument. The dominant instrument is usually melodeon, with anglo or duet concertinas playing chords, and any number of bass and rhythm instruments filling in, as well as melody instruments such as fiddle and EC. Some melodeon players will be playing very basic chords, but probably not in a standard chord progression which a guitarist can follow without paying careful attention. Others (as Mikesamwild suggested) may be playing more complex chords. Fortunately the mechanics of the instruments mean that the chords should all fit in with each other without sounding too awful! I would contrast this with, say, bluegrass, where there tends to be standard chord progressions which everyone can follow without too much difficulty.

 

My point was not that harmony is not an important element of English music, but that it is incidental to the main driver, which is the rhythm. Chordal structure? there isn't one.

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Guest Peter Laban
However my comment was not intended to start a debate about differences or similarities between Irish and English music

 

No, that to and fro-ing is getting a bit tedious. However, you equated Irish music with 'ornamentation' which I really think is secondary to rhythm. But let's leave it at that.

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[i went to his solo Anglo concert at Mrs. Crotty and he blew us all away. By the way, he was playing with almost as much harmony as I do. It sounded great. It sounded Irish. It did not sound much like the way I play, but still lots of chords all the time] yes, and this i WOULD call a different "style" (albeit within irish music) than that cited by yvonne griffine, dymphna o'sullivan and mary macnamara, though i'm with peter that those three have very different, i dunnowhatucallit substyles or styles.

 

for me the dualism often pointed to in discussions about style in irish concertina playing between on-the-row-versus-across-the-row is a red herring. the real stylistic difference in irish concertina playing to me is: heavy left-hand bass noise, oops chords and loud bass octaves (usually found in players who do with more frequent and more loud percussive right-hand ornamentation).....versus a melody-first-and-foremost approach with little to no bass and less obtrusive right-hand ornaments. so michael oraghallahaigh, padraig rynne, & noel hill, though very different, in my head place on the "chords all the time" side of the stylistic line. yvonne griffin, dymphna o'sullivan and mary macnamara (as well as players such as charles coen, kate mcnamara, claire keville, lorraine o'brien, tom carey, mairead considine, chris droney and others) are very different----some play on the rows while others play across the rows, some play modern slap rolls and very light, less obtrusive roll-rolls---but they all share this: a melody-prominent style with little to no bass chording, and absent to light right-hand rolling. (niall vallely is an interesting case where frequent and loudly percussive staccato right-hand ornaments exist with a usually melody-foremost line featuring almost no bass.)

 

i'm not saying that the currently trendy chordal school isn't irish or doesn't sound irish, but i will say that for me personally, the melody-first-and-foremost quality of pure-drop traditional irish playing on all instruments, is what attracted me to itm as a genre, and the melody-foremost concertina players would be the signposts for my own work, regardless of ontherowversusacrosstherows. i also love other melodic traditions from india and pakistan to eastern europe, to......to me, the trendy chordal thing afoot right now in irish concertina style shares regrettable commonalities with the morris, marching-band english thing (which, comically, the irish proponents of the post noel hill thing seem totally oblivious about---they persist in calling it a "piping style," which is ludicrous, because pipers also range from the chordal/staccato end of the business scale to a very clean, melody-foremost style---to me mary macnamara is as "piping inspired" as noel hill).....and let's just say that if i wanted to play marching-band music i would be playing that, not itm.

Edited by ceemonster
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I don't see Englsih music as 'vertical' either. Most of us over here (barring a few envelope-pushers a good many years back who really did think the tune was incidental to the rhythm) are attracted to a good melody first and foremost. There has, as Mike suggests, been a trend amongst younger players - particularly of the melodeon - to devise more sophisticated harmonic accompaniments, but if I listen to someone like Andy Cutting I'm still hearing the tune first and foremost.

 

the trendy chordal thing afoot right now in irish concertina style shares regrettable commonalities with the morris, marching-band english thing

I had thought there was an effort being made here to avoid turning this into an 'English v Irish' thread. Ignorant remarks like the above really aren't going to help.

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gosh, i'm sure it was an accident that the entire phrase was not quoted in your ad hominem comment:

 

 

[TO ME, the trendy chordal thing afoot right now in irish concertina style shares regrettable commonalities with the morris, marching-band english thing...] (emphasis added)

 

it was an opinion about a preferred style. it was an informed opinion, no different from the comment earlier as to how marvellous it was to the commenter that michael o'raghahallaigh was playing in THEIR preferred style, with "lots of chords ALL the time," and playing "with as much harmony as I was." that poster has a right to his opinion and there was nothing ad hominem or insulting about it. i have a right to mine, and there was nothing ad hominem or insulting there either.

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the trendy chordal thing afoot right now in irish concertina style shares regrettable commonalities with the morris, marching-band english thing

I had thought there was an effort being made here to avoid turning this into an 'English v Irish' thread. Ignorant remarks like the above really aren't going to help.

gosh, i'm sure it was an accident that the entire phrase was not quoted in your ad hominem comment:

 

[TO ME, the trendy chordal thing afoot right now in irish concertina style shares regrettable commonalities with the morris, marching-band english thing...] (emphasis added)

 

it was an opinion about a preferred style. it was an informed opinion,...

This is my (MY?) perception, and Brian's may differ, but what I thought he was objecting to was your lumping together "the morris", "marching-band", and "english" as apparently one indivisible and uniform style. Marching band and Morris -- even clog Morris -- are about as separate stylistically as Protestant marchers in Belfast and ceilidh dances in Eire. And other English genres, both dance and song, are just as (or even more) different... also from each other. So I don't know who "informed" your opinion, but I can see that it could be perceived as a put-down of English music as being without variety and therefore uninteresting.

 

You have every right to your opinion of a particular style, but you should be prepared to take flak if you characterize others' musical genres in ways that their practitioners feel are inaccurate.

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[You have every right to your opinion of a particular style, but you should be prepared to take flak if you characterize others' musical genres in ways that their practitioners feel are inaccurate.]

 

i'm perfectly prepared to receive disagreement with my opinions about musical styles. however, this commenter a) edited my comment so as to omit wording making clear that it was an opinion; and B) resorted to ad hominem adjective use.

 

and i was not saying that morris, marching band, etc, are all the same. i was referencing their shared use of liberal bass chording, which happens to be a fact.

 

 

 

 

 

the trendy chordal thing afoot right now in irish concertina style shares regrettable commonalities with the morris, marching-band english thing

I had thought there was an effort being made here to avoid turning this into an 'English v Irish' thread. Ignorant remarks like the above really aren't going to help.

gosh, i'm sure it was an accident that the entire phrase was not quoted in your ad hominem comment:

 

[TO ME, the trendy chordal thing afoot right now in irish concertina style shares regrettable commonalities with the morris, marching-band english thing...] (emphasis added)

 

it was an opinion about a preferred style. it was an informed opinion,...

This is my (MY?) perception, and Brian's may differ, but what I thought he was objecting to was your lumping together "the morris", "marching-band", and "english" as apparently one indivisible and uniform style. Marching band and Morris -- even clog Morris -- are about as separate stylistically as Protestant marchers in Belfast and ceilidh dances in Eire. And other English genres, both dance and song, are just as (or even more) different... also from each other. So I don't know who "informed" your opinion, but I can see that it could be perceived as a put-down of English music as being without variety and therefore uninteresting.

 

You have every right to your opinion of a particular style, but you should be prepared to take flak if you characterize others' musical genres in ways that their practitioners feel are inaccurate.

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Jim sums up my position very well, but may I add...

 

this commenter a) edited my comment so as to omit wording making clear that it was an opinion;

So if I were to say "I think Irish music is just a load of old diddly-diddly" (which,incidentally, is not my opinion), then the words "I think" would obviate any potential offence?

 

and B) resorted to ad hominem adjective use.

 

If you're referring to the word 'ignorant', I should first point out that, in my part of the world, the word can mean either 'lacking in knowledge' or 'gratuitously rude'. Your most recent offering...

 

"i was not saying that morris, marching band, etc, are all the same. i was referencing their shared use of liberal bass chording, which happens to be a fact."

 

... pretty much covers the first alternative (you've never seen morris danced to a solo fiddle?). I leave others to make their minds up on the second.

 

What was the point of the yellow sphere in the shades, by the way?

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[pretty much covers the first alternative (you've never seen morris danced to a solo fiddle?). I leave others to make their minds up on the second.]

 

i quite painfully obviously was not referencing fiddle styles, but concertina styles, as i suspect you understood very well the first time around given the absence of bass chording in fiddling. and it is a fact that the concertina styles i listed, though distinct, share liberal bass chording. as i also suspect you and the poster who favors quoting out of context and flinging rude adjectives around, understood very well the first time around.

 

the sphere you allude to appears on this site and this site only, when my machine types the following: a lower-case "b" followed by a close-paren. i don't do it often enough to remember.

 

in terms of the relative dementia of sartorial choices for marching bands versus morris, TO ME....morris leads by a nose. if it weren't for the bass chording, i might be tempted by the outfits....

Edited by ceemonster
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