Dirge

For what TL does I'm not surprised. But didn't he find the instrument he now plays in a junkshop somewhere? He started out with a high quality Crabb I think; the system found him. Paul Maccan has a couple of nice fair sized Crabb Cranes too; he told me he had Crabbs make the second one to match the first after looking for a backup instrument for years and failing to find one. It's not the system I have a problem with, at least for largely improvised music; my point is that there is a scarcity of 'advanced player' instruments, and I'm suggesting that the fact you can get your first tune out of it more quickly might be a rather shallow reason to have to put up with that for the rest of your playing life.

I tried a Crane a while back and found it very easy to get to grips with. For what I do there's no contest; the Wheatstone arrangement gives me a huge range under my fingers. When the Crane system gets to that size you're in for trouble reaching the full height of the keyboard. However Paul is yer classic folkie/morris player (Right Paul?). He's not going to care if he doesn't have enough notes to play Baroque keyboard music as written or whatever. For him a Crane might make sense. HOWEVER I maintain that the fact that the thing is easy to get the basic hang of is not a good reason to choose a duet system. What is more important, in my opinion, is the long term view. What is the player hoping to achieve in the end? For an 'ear' player a Crane may be a good choice; BUT remember there are not many really good ones about. There's a fair number of decent Sally Army ones in small and middle sizes but really top notch instruments of decent range are rare. As long as Paul is willing to wait and pounce this shouldn't be a problem, at least at the moment. A few decent ones have come up lately. But I'm not convinced that having a regular keyboard is important apart from to the salesman who had to convince a non player to part with his money. Other instrumentallists seem to cope with learning different chord shapes for different chords; you only need 3 or 4 to get off the blocks and you can add the rest as you need them; it's not rocket science; Anglo players like yourself manage to do it for starters. Actually Chris; I started out to say I agreed with you that a Crane might be a good choice for Paul, but while writing and thinking about this I think I've just convinced mysef that the gains are not enough to put up with the inconvenience of the lack of instrument choice, regardless of intended use. I see a superb range of wonderful instruments for sale that I could just pick up and play all the time. You can't say the same for any other duet system.

I haven't thought about this before but perhaps it's time i did. What about mounting the ol' H2 zoom and yesterday's webcam on the back of the music stand (a bit of wood and some rubber bands would do it) so you are reading the music and looking towards the camera at the same time and using the better mic'? And set up next to and plugged into the computer? After all it's only the sound that needs to be decent quality really isn't it?

Although not a player I always appreciate the pungent reek of tradition that permeates these games.

So, that is what you get for cheating..... using your thumb ... what ever next ? Thumbs are very badly designed. You can only use them on a couple of notes in the bottom corner of the keyboard; they won't arch over the outer notes to get to any inner ones, at least mine won't, but it is a useful extra trick and, particularly, sometimes saves you dragging your hand a long way off centre to reach middle C and its sharp on the right.

Thanks for the compliments on this and the Debussy, everyone. I don't play either of them at the moment! The Debussy only because I have a new favourite instrument and it has a different keyboard. I used to use my thumb on the held low C on the Rh and the new keyboard has some lower notes in the way. I need to re-learn it a bit and get it back into practice, that's all because I have no doubts about this one; it was made for the concertina to my mind. As an experiment it's a complete success. The Bach, on the other hand, I am still as uncertain about as I was when I did the original post. I think perhaps it's just a bit of a curate's egg; some parts sound great, but sometimes those building chords get just too much. I've been 'off' it lately and it needs a bit of practice too. I've experimented with cutting the long notes short in the past but never with any results I liked. I must have another look at it.

Wotcher Paul! Hope you're well? I can't understand why on earth anyone who has no strong preconceptions on the matter would want to pay lots more money for a concertina that does less. Get a Maccan of course. It's a no brainer as they say. Cheaper for the top quality instruments and you can do more with it. This is a bit obvious but I suppose you have already discounted just buying another Jeffries duet that has a different range in some way? I haven't paid close attention but from memory they came in various sizes and tunings, didn't they? You have time to look around and they seem to have been coming up for sale off and on but fairly steadily recently.

I just found http://www.wikifonia.org (I can't see how to make this into a link, sorry.) I don't remember it being mentioned before. It seems to be taking the 'lead sheet' idea that the jazz people do, that putting just a melody and chords down is not breaking copyright and fair game, and applying it to anything and everything so what you get is a melody line chords and the words if appropriate. There's a right old mix of stuff; for example I got there while looking for the song 'Lazybones' but it includes enough information to make a go of quite a few more modern tunes that people normally fight shy of posting. I saw some beatles stuff for instance. Worth a look. (editted to add that when I posted it i saw the machine had made it into a link anyway without asking me....)

I don't think it's much different from anything else in difficulty (I find Englishes and Anglos incomprehensible myself). Expectations are higher. People play melody only tunes on Englishes and Anglos and this can be regarded as sufficient, but try that on a duet and people will look at you funny. That, I think, is a big part of the problem; the bar is set higher from the start. Also I think lots of duets are bought by players of other systems who, when they don't immediately start to play great music, get discouraged and go back to their main system. Clearly it wouldn't be their fault for not persisting; it must be the instrument that's too hard. That's just human nature. As to hand strain dunno. Again I find holding an EC very awkward but it's not what I'm used to so...Geoff Woof should comment on this one as the only member I can think of that's accomplished at both. And finally I have a lot of fun with my 46 key playing anything I fancy and busking the chords to suit; tune in the RH and chords in the LH by and large.

Do you think the 'low C variant' was a Lachenal-only thing? (There are bound to be the inevitable exceptions by special order, but generally) I would have just said it was '56 key = low G, 58 key = low C' until recently. PS I, myself, certainly wouldn't worry about the low RH notes after my experience with the 46. With a bigger instrument where you might play off written music, yes. I don't sing, in any serious way, as I play; perhaps the lower range suits accompaniment?

Excellent! What fascinating insights did they share in private? You're the new boy so don't cause trouble by naming names but you could tell us the conclusions they offered without dropping anyone in it... As I was saying, it's a bit quiet round here at the moment...

For the same reason I've just sent you his contact details privately; he's officially retired these days!

Hallo Dave and welcome; pleased to meet a man of such clearly impeccable taste. I went down a similar decision-making process a few years ago; starting from similar criteria to yours but I wanted to play classical music too. It really is a wonderful instrument and will do all that you think. You won't be dissappointed. From what you say you really need to look at a duet. The English is less versatile and more expensive. Do some more reading and bounce some more Q's off us! Duets, themselves, also come in several flavours; I came out of the decision process with a Wheatstone duet; a 'Maccan' as it is usually called these days. Look at my previous posts and you'll find examples of my playing. Also track down Ralph Jordan's bits; he does the by ear bit with great style. (My choice was more by luck than judgement at the time because there was very little information about but it was the right one for me)

Or simplest way Different noises push and pull: Anglo. 4 vertical columns of keys English 5 etc...Crane or Triumph (same thing) 6 etc... Wheatstone duet or Maccan if you must. Great arcs of notes, says Jeffries on it and is usually being offered at a stupid price by the seller who has worked out the name is worth money to some; Jeffries. and the outside chance: Great arcs of notes and obviously relatively new: Hayden Easy. Top or bottom rows may be missing a note or two to confuse you but it's always pretty clear.

Yes it needed new bellows and Mike Acott who was doing the resurrection job suggested he fit a set of David leese's best quality with an extra fold and that's where we went. They seem excellent as in: I haven't given them a moment's thought, if you see what I mean. I can't tell you what they cost as it was all in the general refit price, which I've also forgotten...

On the 'and a Rh down to middle C' bit: I find I play more in C than anything on my 46. I end based arround an octave up from that of middle C most of the time. Starting at the C above middle C I have half an octave below it; that allows me a few notes of tune that drop below my 'revised middle C' if you see what I mean. It seems to me that this is what was intended when the makers picked the range in the first place. Perhaps the 'must go down to middle C' perceived wisdom is on the principle that the owner will want to take it to a session and play in G, and they also will need the occasional below the main octave note? You say you're playing mostly in C, Geoff? Well the 46 may well be enough. The sheer size of the bellows may be limiting though if you're going to do chording. I've got an extra fold in mine and use every inch of it. I end up playing a little high, using almost all of the keyboard, but it's not offensively trebly and people say nice things about it. That might help to cut through the din though, Geoff. Very rarely I need to pick a note out of the bass but infrequently. But as I've said elsewhere I really like the thing; I'm having a lot of fun with the poppy/folky sort of stuff I used to play on the old piano accordion as a variation from the heavy stuff I play on the big brutes.

Chris A has a metal raised end 46 on Ebay too. But I think Ann touched on it. How on earth can you assess 'loud' at long range? You're going to have to just wait for the right one, surely? Why snub an aeola if it turns up though? Do you reckon the long scale reeds are quieter? I'm not convinced; I think your 'problem' is more about leverage increasing with the cross-section on the bigger instruments, which just happen to be aeolas a lot of the time. If I'm playing my 81 I work up a good sweat if playing something thunderous and I wouldn't want to have to keep it up for too long. (How many instruments give you such good exercise when you play them, incidentally?) Loudness seems to be something that varies from instrument to instrument anyway, and I wonder if that is mostly in the set of the reeds?

How about not worry too much? Someone who falls for one of these deserves what they get; you really would have to be half baked. Ebay don't really care; it may bring a little reduction in their already poor public image but they have a monopoly so they don't worry too much about that anyway (or so it seems to me). Hence the dozy responses. On the other hand, anyone trying to complain to Ebay about being ripped off trying to buy from one of these people will get told pretty smartly that as they were trading outside the rules of the site it's nothing to do with Ebay. So they are not concerned about losing money on these; the only thing that might motivate them to take a serious view. I'd just leave them all to it and ignore it. I don't think you do any real good reporting them, even; all you do is help Ebay smarten up their image. And, in the unlikely event of success, I bet the poor sod sitting in some third world country banging out these invitations to be defrauded by the thousand needs the money more than the would-be purchaser anyway. (I have no intention of giving him anything though) Find a fraudster who appears to be working IN the system and I'd be worried too. Ebay would take that one seriously though, and we'll never hear about it until one of us gets bitten. Mind you i grant you there's not much happening otherwise on Cnet at the moment.

I aim to start playing from the closed position (or wherever the thing happens to be at rest) and take the bellows out most of the way before turning round. Stop before it starts to stretch! As in, the simplest, most obvious way, I suppose. Do the turn at the end of a phrase when things are a little more relaxed, maybe? Place that silence when the airpressure drops somewhere artistic? Low notes drink more air as Ransom says. I don't think there's a rule, and I suspect you'll quickly work out what suits you and that will be as good as everyone else's ideas. Anglo players get different notes in different directions so have to take great account of bellows positions or risk running out of air; don't let their discussions about this influence you as an English player; the situation is quite different.

You can verify from the pics of the concertina for sale that it has no low E in the LH. To make it easy, the names of the notes are on the heads of the keys, the LH end is shown in pic no 12 (only). Diagrams of 39-key Maccann key layouts in Maccan's own New Instruction Method and Gaskins chording book on concertina.com show no E, though Gaskins' wording gives some indication that this may not apply to every specific instrument. Every 46-key I have seen has this E, and it is shown in the diagrams in the same books mentioned above, though I think some early models may lack it. Yes Ivan, I think you are right. The attachments are not very good but you can probably see there is no low E in either the 39 or 47 Key. My Lach' 46 (which I think is pretty standard) is slightly different to your pic. On the LH the low E is there but no high Bb or C#. I wouldn't normally expect to get the sharp on the top note of a LH keyboard anyway; they didn't seem to do that. I think this all points to the diagram being a very early one. I had my G# slot fitted with a low D so I have a continuous natural scale up from the low C. I'd recommend that one, Tony.

That worked well; or perhaps more to the point I managed to download it wothout problems. What a smashing little collection of Victorian pop faves, Pete. Where did you find it?

Oh they look fun. Thanks Pete, I shall enjoy having a better look tomorrow. Enjoy your day out.

A varied mixture. See here, especially definition 4. Thanks for that Jim; not sure definition 5 might not be closer. "5. Theater . a. a specialty act performed downstage while the upstage set is changed. b. a performance, as a musical number, presented between scenes or acts. c. drop scene ( def 1 ) . d. a program of variety acts, especially the second half of a minstrel show. " I haven't seen if the music fits! What a strange word.

What's the 'olio' bit mean? (am I being dense? Is it obvious?)

Why on earth would someone "mainly interested in playing single line tunes" buy a duet concertina? David, you have sliced through the fustian gloom of this discussion to strike the true heart. How could anyone possibly suggest play single notes on a tiny concertina when it is clearly labeled a 'duet'? How indeed?