Dirge

The offset buttons: Brian Hayden says that was for brass band use where they'd need to play in flat keys a lot. I THINK, nothing more, that the ones I've seen are all from about 1900ish and I wonder if this was a short lived 'improvement' to the layout; the thinking being that Ebs are easy stumbling stones, so offset them so the player knows he's about to hit a wrong note. The Bb being out of line perhaps favours Brian's theory. The LH looked normal but I could make no sense of the RH; I didn't twig that it might be a 'lowest note G' instrument extended down to C though, so I didn't think that one through. If I was considering having a go I'd go back to Bob Gaskins charts and see if it can be made to 'fit' one of them with a downward extention from G on the RH given that we think we can identify some of the flat notes. I'd suggest one good thing about it is that the ends tell us that it's a factory job, designed like this. Very tantalising, things like this. The 'something for nothing factor' is strong! I do NOT need it.

The Eb's are set off to the left; you see it occasionally.

I've been called Dirge since i was at school. It's difficult to escape sometimes.

Surely not the very Sam Spoons legendary for his work on rhythm pole?

I played a midi duet a while ago and thought it was great. I could immediately play faster yet as accurately as a std concertina, and i could sound like any instrument I wanted except a concertina, but I have a real one of them. The bottom line was, though, that I didn't buy it. I say and believe that I would still love it but don't have the spare money at the moment...I wonder now if you're right John; subconsciously I see it as a toy? Not quite serious? I must sit down and have a proper talk with myself.

I'm going to have to come back and think about that harder (with the help of the wikipedia) before I understand it all. Might well do it though. Thanks Randy!

Actually you can make that into a better than average 'knock knock joke' knock knock Who's there? Gunga Din. Gunga din who? Gunga Din the door's locked.

Sorry matey but it's more that it's stating the obvious. That was the whole point. Geoff, Theo, in the light of your comments OK perhaps the differences in manufacturing are large and back up the standard view and the idea was a non starter. OK Paul; done that. I'm happy. Feel free to discuss the beauties of quality brass reeded instruments with Geoff... Apologies, badly worded. It gets a bit literal at times round here and that bit was supposed to be covering my back against someone accusing me of assuming willy-nilly that customers bought some of the better quality brass reeded instruments specifically for rough conditions. This is usually taken as a 'known fact' in the concertina world but I couldn't remember seeing any clear evidence. On the other hand there was no question in my mind whatsoever whether brass was better in damp and salt, (I have a brass reeded concertina for exactly this reason) and I doubt anyone here would argue with that one. It never occurred to me that someone might be compelled to confirm this basic fact. Sorry about that.

Dirge, surely the '39' refers to the wheatstone type designation and not to a customer number. A type 39 is a 67 key Duet. It does appear that they gave these unusual layouts the type number nearest to a standard number of buttons. Therefore this one which has 69keys is nearest to a 67. Oh Ok, my mistake. Yet it says 9 1/2", the size of a 71 key. So they record that it was a 67 key (sort of) but in a 71 key body!

Sorry matey but it's more that it's stating the obvious. That was the whole point. Geoff, Theo, in the light of your comments OK perhaps the differences in manufacturing are large and back up the standard view and the idea was a non starter. OK Paul; done that. I'm happy. Feel free to discuss the beauties of quality brass reeded instruments with Geoff...

Its keyboard layout is very similar to my preferred instrument of the moment. Based on that it looks like it goes down to low F on the bass but loses 2 top notes. If it IS broadly the same the missing notes are treble B and C but it still has the Bb. And was it ever plated? You'd have to take it apart and scrub it to get it that clean of nickel. I wonder if it was originally painted to match the wood end. Then the wood end treble again looks like mine but with one extra note. Again based on that it may go down to G below middle C; the extra note would then be a high G. What a curiosity, and they made 2. Shame we can't hear it play; useful evidence for the metal vs wood tone investigation. Editted to add I can see it says NP on the register so forget that one, but does it say 'black bright' for the RH? I see customer no 39 got a 67 key further down the page. Concertina band?

I don't think tone is a red herring. I have three steel-reeded English concertinas and three brass-reeded (http://www.pghardy.net/concertina/), and I would always prefer to play the brass-reeded ones around the house. The tone is much more mellow and less obtrusive. If you are playing in a band and competing with other loud instruments then the steel reeds win every time. If you want to practice without disturbing the wife, or play along with another single instrument, then the brass reeded instruments are superior. My opinion - do others agree? Well it is a red herring given the question was whether brass reeded budget concertinas were made to sell in part because of their indestructability rather than simply because they were cheaper to make. Start your own thread if you want to discuss the wonders of brass reeds in all their delicate glory... Unless you're claiming that the brass-reed 'tutors' were knocked out in their thousands because there was a need for quiet practice instruments, of course. Theo; you clearly reckon 'cheap to make, purely to sell cheap' then?

It seems to me there are a lot of brass reeded bottom of the range Lachenals and Wheatstones about, both 20b Anglos and treble Englishes. Although I've never taken enough notice of the things to look at numbers I infer from the amount I've seen that they were made for many years. The reason usually given for this is that brass reeds were cheaper to make. End of story. I have always found this difficult to swallow; I couldn't tell you exactly why but it seems an economy that's barely worth it for starters. I don't think 'using up early stocks of blanks' cuts it either in view of the number of the things I've seen. With fancier instruments brass reeds were sometimes used where the instrument was expected to have a rough time, especially in situations with high humidity or salt spray; we know this, I think? (yes I know brass was also specified for it's particular tone, but that's a red herring for the purposes of this) Were the brass reeded cheap instruments made in such numbers because some of the people buying them would be taking them somewhere rough? Was the reason for keeping them in the range more about serving a particular client type (the 'man before the mast' for starters)than about economy per se? I don't know why this hasn't been said before; if it has sorry, I was clearly gazing out of the window again...I'm suggesting that even on the cheapest instruments brass reeds were seen as an advantage for certain circumstances, not merely a cost cutting down-grade as I have always been told. Any views?

You've misunderstood me but I'm going to start a new subject on this q.v...

Dang! I have a Lachenal MacCann Duet with what I think are rosewood ends. If I had known that MacCann Duets could be considered sailor type concertinas a year ago, maybe I would never have spent any time with these 20 button ones, and instead spent more time with the MacCann duet. Well, I hope we have spared someone else the trouble. Sorry I didn't mention it before. It's 'Uncle Arthur's concertina' and I got it from his family who had been sitting on it for years. Nice people. When I asked where he got it they replied 'Probably won it in a card game, knowing him.' He could play it though, apparently. He was an AB based in Liverpool so I tell anyone who's interested that my squeezebox helped guard the Western Approaches from the Germans. If you find something that's not absolute budget with brass reeds there's a reason for that. Maybe the buyer wanted the different tone. I can believe that in some cases. But I think more were made because they were going to have to cope with adverse climate or conditions. (Like lots of salt spray and damp, say.) What I wonder now is whether there was any link with the cheapest brass reed models and seamen. People usually just leave the subject at 'The cheapest models have brass reeds; look for a steel reeded one.' I don't remember there being a discussion about why there are so many brass reeded instruments about but there are definitely quite a few. The usual line is that the makers could cut the price by a few pence by using brass, end of story. But that never rang true for me and I've wondered before now why they kept on making them. It might explain why they kept knocking them out if they were for a particular niche of the market. Did they make the brass reed cheapos to appeal to anyone who was taking it somewhere hostile? 'In your line of work, sir, can I recommend that you consider a brass reeded model?'

I've a small brass reeded Lachenal Maccan that is my 'rough and tumble' instrument. That was definitely owned by an able seaman during the war and I suspect always went to sea because not only was it sold in Liverpool originally but it has rosewood ends which suggests to me that the brass reeds are there to resist sea spray damage not for economy. (which is why I have it too) Anyway my point is that you don't need to mortify your flesh with broken out of tune Scholers to be authentic because at least a few sailors had the wit to take a half decent instrument with them.

Totally missed that; I thought he said he hadn't been playing long. Probably makes my comment rather irrelevant.

This has little to do with concertinas or accordions now, it's just me being pedantic, but I would argue that Mozart was NOT a renaissance man; he was a brilliant musician. Brilliant, but narrow focus; music only. (Although I understand he had a gift for swearing. Not sure if that counts.) I don't dispute that there are people who can be superb on more than one instrument. Apart from the fact that I wouldn't dare because I know from previous posts that there are other Cnetters who would take it personally, you probably know that if you study classical music you are expected to learn to play piano to above average standard as well as your chosen device. However I do feel strongly that it is worth doing one thing well before you move on. learn to walk before you try to run as it were. Incidentally I can "still never quite get there" without even bothering to "do everything right". Is that good?

Well under your "broad" definition of the term you are clearly a renaissance man so that's OK. Me, I think playing several instruments even if all were played very well indeed would still only count as one thing for these purposes; being a musician. You'd better take up painting or writing poetry or something and excell at them too; then you'd make it under my definition too.

I do understand. As I say, been there many times. I'm just better at walking past these days. No, I don't think you can claim renaissance man on these terms, sorry!

I take a different view on all this; after years of buying interesting instruments when I tripped over them, being keen for a fortnight then leaving them in the corner for a few months and eventually selling them on I have decided that these sort of distractions are just negative and I'd say: stick with your fiddle and get really good at it first. Much more satisfying, and once you get there you may not want a concertina at all anymore. OR decide the fiddle has not nearly as much to offer as the concertina (which of course is true) sell it now and buy a decent concertina. Get one instrument really under your belt before you shoot off at a tangent. Mind you, that all said, I was most taken with the idea of a ukelele banjo recently and if I come across one in a junk shop (I seem to see more of them than any other instrument I think)in the near future that may get carried home to gather dust for a while. And I always wanted another go at the Eb tenor horn because you can play them comfortably in the bath, an aspect which for some reason I find alluring...

Oh I'd quite forgotten we'd been there before.

You may have thought of this Malcolm but the corner treatment reminds me of a campaign chest; you know, one of those Victorian chest of drawers made to be part of an army officers travelling kit? Brass corners and edges everywhere to protect against knocks. I wonder if it was commissioned by a soldier?

In light of the experiment and the Dipper comments I found myself thinking that perhaps the wood vs metal thing was something Wheatstone and Lachenal engineered in deliberately. That would then fit my experience to a large degree yet not dispute the observations we're discussing. Then I felt I had to offer a reason why they would do it to justify this. I thought perhaps it would increase the choices they were offering by making the 2 materials APPEAR to offer greater sound characteristic variations. I also wondered if there was a price difference but CBA to look it up. Anyone got an old catalogue handy? (I was thinking of the way injection cars were more expensive than carburettor cars when they first came out, "Racey!" "Sporty!" but in fact the injection system was a lot cheaper to make than a carb...were W&L able to charge more for a metal ender that cost much the same to make?) (edited to make something make sense. Well, more sense than it did...)

From all this analysis of method I deduce that everyone feels the same as me, Chris, that we have huge trouble swallowing the results because it is apparently contrary to a fair amount of personal experience. Hence all the 'did you do this?' stuff. But I looked back and you do say clearly that this is how the 2 sound to you, so it isn't an artifact of the technique. I don't doubt that your experiment was correctly done so I still find it completely baffling. I think perhaps Randy made the best comment...not sure it helps though. And, since you ask, I have never come across a really screaming wood end job, (although it would have to be a Jeffries wouldn't it?) although I have heard some lovely mellow ones, almost sleepy, but I wonder now if they were brass reeded too. The most ear splitting concertina I've heard was an EC with metal ends. "This will make your ears bleed." said the owner with a grin as he got it out of its box.