A Hayden Duet Technique Question

[Stephen Mills]

As probably even most non-Hayden players are aware, the Hayden keyboard is laid out so that any scale has the same fingering pattern (until the edges of the instrument intrude). A scale traverses 3 rows as, for example:

 

{- - C - - - -}

{ - F G A B -}

{- - C D E - -}

 

 

The logical RH fingering for this, and that mentioned in the Gaskins article, is:

 

{- - 2 - - - -}

{ - 1 2 3 4 -}

{- - 2 3 4 - -}

 

where 1,2,3,4 are index, middle, ring and little fingers.

 

The trouble I find with this scheme is that the strong index finger plays only the IV note while the little finger plays both the III and VII notes (in the major Ionian mode). In fact, I find that on some tunes, my little finger is playing almost every other note over extended passages, while the index finger basically lays out. Now I've got pretty well trained little fingers, especially on the left hand, from 25 years of classical guitar, but this can hardly be ideal.

 

I have investigated some compromise solutions, but Hayden players, what do you do?

[David Barnert]

I have been playing the Hayden system for 18 years. Welcome to the club. The only other active Hayden player on this forum that I can think of is Rich Morse, and I hope he chimes in as well, because I know that his answer will be different from mine. Jack Woehr appears to have dropped the forum years ago.

 

The thing about the Hayden System is that there are no published tutors and no teachers in most areas, so most of us have taught ourselves to play in a vacuum.

 

I find myself using my 1st finger a lot more than above and my 4th finger a lot less. It means sometimes having to play two consecutive notes with the same finger, and perhaps this is something that should be avoided, but I don't find it a problem.

 

I play most major scales with 1-2-3-1-2-3-3-1, sometimes ending with 4-2, depending on what happens next. I almost never use my 4th finger except for playing leading tones (raised 7) in minor keys or playing a raised 4th in a major key.

 

A couple of years ago, I tried relearning all the tunes I knew using a more politically correct fingering, but I found it very frustrating and abandoned it.

 

But, hey, that's just me. I know that Rich disagrees. I expect others would, too.

 

By the way, Jack started up a Hayden players mailing list. It's been dormant for years, but the mechanism may still be in place. Looking at Jack's Hayden page I see no mention of it. You might contact him and see if he still has the addresses.

[JimLucas]

A couple of years ago, I tried relearning all the tunes I knew using a more politically correct fingering,...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How can there be a politically "correct" anything for an instrument that few (any?) politicians have ever heard of, and which they would undoubtedly deride (because it lacks a significant voting bloc) if they had.

[John Wild]

A scale traverses 3 rows as, for example:

{- - C - - - -}

{ - F G A B -}

{- - C D E - -}

 

The logical RH fingering for this, and that mentioned in the Gaskins article, is:

{- - 2 - - - -}

{ - 1 2 3 4 -}     

{- - 2 3 4 - -}     

where 1,2,3,4 are index, middle, ring and little fingers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I suppose the English concertina is still my principal instrument (sorry Brian - I do try), but I have been playing the Hayden system for quite a few years. My instrument is of the range starting with middle C on the right, with the left hand one octave lower.

 

My normal fingering is to use 1 for the top button in each row. In the scale of C described above, this would mean playing middle C on 1. My fingering for this scale would therefore be:

 

The top note could be either 1 or 2 according to what came next

 

{ - 2 - - - -}

{ - 1 2 3 4 -}

{ 1 2 3 - -}

 

Generally my little finger is still weaker than the rest, and I probably use it less than I should. A side effect is that by playing the duet, my 3rd finger has become much more flexible when going back to the English.

 

- John Wild

Edited August 16, 2005 by John Wild

[David Barnert]

The only other active Hayden player on this forum that I can think of is Rich Morse

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(sorry Brian - I do try)

Of course. I forgot Brian!

[Richard Morse]

On the treble side I stick to

 

- - - 1 2 3 - - -

- - 1 2 3 4 - - -

- - - 1 2 3 - - -

 

and break the pattern only when I have to which usually involves using an alternate finger BEFORE a troublesome fingering - so that I do that note that would have used the same finger - instead with the "correct" finger. It seems that the most frequent culprit is to play the tonic and then the subdominant (the C note followed by the F note - if playing in the key of C).

 

On the bass side I usually use

 

- - - 3 2 1 - - -

- - 3 2 1 1 - - -

- - - 3 2 1- - -

 

when doing simple accompaniment, and will revert to

 

- - - 3 2 1 - - -

- - 4 3 2 1 - - -

- - - 3 2 1- - -

 

when I know I'll be needing the fingering flexibility. I do this mainly because the root note is so predominant and my ring finger is far more intelligent than my pinky.

 

Being that there is no "official" nor "proscribed" way of fingering, and so few of us - I guess we do what seems/feels "right" to each of us. I started out by spending a few days with Brian Hayden and so have adopted his method of fingering - at least on the treble side - of which he was quite adamant. I forget how he fingered the bass side so the sequence above may or may not be what he does.

 

I'm quite aware of Bob Gaskins's Hayden article in which he indicates fingerings. It appears that his choice of fingering stems mainly from the importance he places upon major 7th chords.

 

It's unfortunate that the Hayden sample Bob has is a Stagi on which the button placements are considerably non-standard being considerably further apart AND having different slopes between the sides AND that the left side slope is so raked that fingering any button with your pinky becomes an exercise in frustration.... Why Stagi didn't consult Brian Hayden or Steve Dickinson on the layout is beyond me (and rankles BH as well).

 

Combine Bob's penchant for 7th chords and the difficulty of playing them led him to use his right hand index finger to play those 7ths for the rest of the chord played with the left hand as playing the 7th in the position lower than the root was an underpreferable alternate. As a result he tries to "play all the time with middle, ring, and little fingers on the right hand, so as to save the strong and quick index finger in case a seventh is needed."

I asked him about this (no I was *not* the "experienced Hayden Duet player" refers to) as that fingering choice seems unduly limiting, and he was adamant that the importance of the 7th chord was such. I have a hard time imagining such importance as I (and all the musicians I know around here) rarely play 7th chords (unless you're into cowboy music?). If I need a 7th, I do it with my pinky on the left, usually below the tonic which to my ears doesn't sound as jarring as the octave above.

 

At the beginning on his "Scales" section Bob says "the fingering pattern for a scale is..." without reason or reference. I can only assume by his discussion later during chordwork and the 7th issue that this is the basis of his fingering choice.

 

BTW, there was some prior discussion on this in another thread

here which shows fingering in different modes as well.

[JackWoehr]

On the treble side I stick to

 

- - - 1 2 3 - - -

- -  1 2 3 4 - - -

- - - 1 2 3 - - -

 

and break the pattern only when I have to which usually involves using an alternate finger BEFORE a troublesome fingering - so that I do that note that would have used the same finger - instead with the "correct" finger. It seems that the most frequent culprit is to play the tonic and then the subdominant (the C note followed by the F note - if playing in the key of C).

 

On the bass side I usually use

 

- - - 3 2 1 - - -

- -  3 2 1 1 - - -

- - - 3 2 1- - -

hen doing simple accompaniment, and will revert to

 

- - - 3 2 1 - - -

- -  4 3 2 1 - - -

- - - 3 2 1- - -

 

Hi, I'm still around sometimes. I just don't have a lot of time for forums.

 

My thoughts about this fingering question is like so:

 

The "debug lab" for passage fingering is to play the passage simultaneously on both sides. During the test run, use "identical" fingering, by which I mean, if it's played 1-2-3-4 on the right, play it simultaneously 4-3-2-1 on the left. It's a sanity check.

 

For ascending major scales like C, you can play 123-1234-1 or 234-1234-1 (or the mirror on the left side, 432-4321-4 etc.) ... it really depends where you are going next. There's no magic answer, it's all relative to where you came from and whence you are going next in the melody. E.g., in the first few measures of "Off to California", I play

 

D-E-F#

2-3-4

 

G-F#-G-A-B-A-G

1-4-1-2-3-2-1

 

D-E-F#

2-3-4

G-B-D-g-E-E-F#

1-3-2-1-2-3-4

[inventor]

Playing the Hayden concertina has been for me a wonderfull voyage of discovery for nearly 30 years. First let me say that there is no correct, let alone polictically corect method of playing the instrument, everything that has been suggested above will be found usefull in some context or other; however I suggest the following guidelines for fingering.

1) Find the best fingering possible for each piece of music that you play.

2) Move a finger to the place that you are going to use this finger, immediately after you you have taken it off the button; not just before you play a finger in a new place.

3) Avoid if at all possible jumping a finger from one button to another on consecutive notes.

4) However if you can find no other way; it is better to cut a note slightly short rather than come in late on the next note.

5) Only ever jump to an adjacent button, (first choice one diagonally on the adjacent row, not too bad; next along the row only if you have to).

6) Consider changing a finger on a button whilst you are playing it (it helps to have large flat top buttons), or playing an odd note on the other side of the instrument.

So far as specific fingerings for specific notes, I generally use the following for the right hand side:

Do 2, Re 3, Mi 4, Fa 1; So 2, La 3, Ti 4, do 1. ie I use the same fingering for each tetracord of the scale. This also works if you are playing up and down in thirds.

On the left hand side if I am playing a chordal accompaniment I have found it best to use only the 3-2-1 fingers reserving 4 for playing bass notes. I use these in 2 different ways:

1) For normal use a finger for each note, (playing the dominant 7th partial). This allows me to easily alter the inversion of a chord or play it as an arpeggio or broken chord.

2)But for fast chord changes I will use only 2 fingers per chord playing the 5ths or 4ths together on one finger and bringing the 4th finger into play.

3) I once spent a long time practicing using the 4th finger on LHS when playing a counter melody.

 

Well times up on this computer - more next week

Inventor

[inventor]

In the first section I should have added :-

7) When playing two parts together, (as it is very easy to do on the HC), if you have to jump fingers it is better to do two single finger jumps rather than a double finger jump.

Coming back to the second section (left hand); which I had to stop in mid flow.

3b) this involved as you say a lot of use of the little finger, however I found that as I went into more complex music, and also took delivery of a larger concertina; I increasingly used the little finger for playing the lower notes only; managing the middle parts on the R M & F fingers (3 2 1 ). This does involve a little more finger jumping than on the right hand, but if you are playing legarto on the right hand ocassional tiny gaps on the lower parts don't notice. (and I might add these are considerably less than a piano player might have to use)

4) When a 4th or 5th comes up in the music, I usually play these with one finger. On the larger instrument I have every perfect 4th and every perfect 5th on one finger somewhere on the instrument throughout the whole 4.5 octave compass of the instrument. (Note on a well set up HC the rows of notes are 9mm apart, the buttons are 16mm apart along the rows which gives a distance of buttons diagonally of 12mm. I use 6mm diameter flat top buttons) .

 

Inventor.