Learning by ear vs learning by sheet music, my experience

[Ptarmigan]

.... and hiding concertinas in the hay with the weapons!

 

Hmmmmmmmm now Michael, there's somewhere I haven't looked yet!

[Ptarmigan]

???? delete please!

Edited March 7, 2009 by Ptarmigan

[Anglo-Irishman]

I don't see there the furious competition usually fund at ITM. Perhaps is because english music didn't went to the USA and come back transformed into a Disneyworld merchandising package, like the 'Celtic Music' - revolting word -. Perhaps because wasn't used as a sign of national identity or nationalism, or the amount of professional musicians is significantly smaller.

 

Of course, as usual, this is only my opinion and my point of view.

 

Well said, Fer! I share your opinion, and your dislike of the word "Celtic" in this context. I'm an Irishman, and for me "Celtic" has always meant "10th century or earlier". Other countries may have a different end date for the Celtic period, but you can bet it's in the millennium before last .

Irish or Scottish music doesn't have much of a chance in America, because a lot of it is sung, and American accents sound rather, well, displaced. If they call songs from Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Brittany and Calicia "Celtic", there's no linguistic norm to conform to, so they can have at it.

My repertoire is largely Irish songs, but I do include a few Scottish ones. (They are too different to be lumped together in one category, e.g. "Celtic"). I allow myself to do this because I spent my childhood in Scotland and learned the appropriate diction. Call that snobbery, of you like.

 

Cheers,

John

 

Cheers,

John

[Ptarmigan]

Irish or Scottish music doesn't have much of a chance in America, because a lot of it is sung, ....

 

Aye & as well as that A.I., the Americans call all tunes SONGS!

 

Cheers

Dick

[Charles Hunt]

I am a mandolin player mostly and learned it originally when I was 25 years old. I did not read music when I started, but my mandolin teacher, Hibbard Perry, was a classical fretted instrument player and taught me to read music along with the mandolin lessons. At the same time I was playing folk music and learned to play tunes by ear. If I can hum the whole tune, every note, without doubt about any phrase, I can figure it out on the mandolin. When I decided to take up Crane Duet I was 60 years old and so far, I have only played by ear on it. I sometimes look at note system chart to figure out what note to start off on, but once I get rolling I can usually figure out the melody by ear. I have quite a repetoire of mandolin tunes and I have been applying them to the Crane Duet. Of course the left hand is another matter, although I instantly know by ear if I am playing the wrong chord. I would say the Crane Duet has taught me a lot about forming and playing chords and accompaniement, although I still have a long way to go in that respect. Charlie

[catty]

Aye & as well as that A.I., the Americans call all tunes SONGS!

 

I'm sure there are those for whom this is true. But, there are also those of us who just play the music, and don't find so much time to quibble over all the differences. For example, I have a gig playing "Celtic" music on the 17th and the folks listening will likely find it enjoyable, and few if any will know that it's not "Celtic" music proper (indeed, we're even going to play some Scandinavian music just for kicks). Yet I was raised in Detroit and the closest thing to ITM for me was Led Zepplin. Maybe I'll play "Bron y aur," and Jimmy's version of "Black Mountainside" too.

Edited March 7, 2009 by catty

[Nanette Hooker]

I have found this topic interesting and would like to add my experience.

 

I think learning tunes by ear and from sheet music is equally important, however, sheet music for folk music, especially Irish music is only a basic framework (ie without ornamentation) and one needs to listen to a number of players to hear their interpretation.

 

I play English concertina, and have learnt most tunes from sheet music. I can also learn tunes by ear, but it takes me longer (I use a slowdowner program) and find it quite rewarding to play along with the recorded music. Sometimes I haven't been able to find sheet music for some tunes and when I have learnt it by ear, I can easily forget it if I don't play it regularly. I write out the sheet music (using Noteworthy) so that I don't forget it - I also anotate it with where I put in ornaments, etc. I found this a challenging and interesting exercise that can sometimes take time. The more I do this the easier it gets.

 

Two years ago I formed a band with 2 friends who need sheet music to play music, so I am the member who provides the dots. I now find it quiet easy to write the sheet music for the basic tune, but I am having difficulty doing the chords.

 

I still have a lot of learning to do and admire musicians who can play by ear.

[Jody Kruskal]

I too have found this topic interesting. Here are my two cents worth.

 

My musical circles are wide ranging and I play in a variety of situations in and outside of traditional music and on a number of instruments including Anglo concertina, sometimes with dots and sometimes without. Universally, the musicians I enjoy playing with the most are those that play in a way that respond to what is going on around them. I get bored fast in a session where everyone is banging away and nobody's listening much to each other. When I do something interesting with a tune I love it when my band-mates respond in kind and I like to pick up on their ideas. There are lots of ways to play a tune. Without any conversation it could be clear that this time around we'll play it like this... lets go!

 

Playing together is always my goal. In traditional music where dots are not used much (in performance anyway) there is a wonderful opportunity to not only listen but look around to see what is going on. Sure you can stretch out your ears and listen to each other but watching and even making eye contact can really bring musicians together. Dots can certainly get in the way of that, though they don't have too.

 

I remember in college, an exceptional cello teacher, Maxine Newman. She was an inspiration and still plays beautifully. I watched her perform many times. In concert she would usually have the music half memorized and as she played (with sheet music in front of her) she would lean in to another musician, glance up, raise her eyebrows and be quite physical about a ritard or a peek of dynamics or whatever was going on, and so communicate her intentions to the other player as well as the audience. This easy and clear communication was essential to her playing. She wasn't just reading the dots, she was making music with other musicians and the details she was communicating were so important that listening alone was not enough, she had to physicalize her intentions and actually look at the other musicians she was playing with to confirm that they understood and were in agreement.

 

It's hard to do that or be aware of that in others if you have your eyes glued to the page. On the other hand, if you are playing by ear it is quite possible to blaze away with eyes closed and with no regard to what the folks around you are playing. So, my feeling about notation, is that it's a wonderful tool that can be quite useful, but... music is in the air, not on the page.

 

On the other hand, if you are a composer then the page is everything.

[Fergus_fiddler]

I'm sure there are those for whom this is true. But, there are also those of us who just play the music, and don't find so much time to quibble over all the differences.

 

I'm sorry, but I deeply disagree. I 've been banned from a forum for to try tell the teens that real irish music has nothing to do with f*ck*ng fairies & leprechauns. Everybody has the time for to acquire a minimum culture - and nowadays with internet there's not excuse for not to - for to name the things properly and thus try to understand why and how for to achieve a better approach. Missnaming it is, to me, a lack of respect to the tradition and the music itself.

 

So, there's not such a thing like 'celtic' music, There are irish, scottish, breton, cape breton,...etc. music. But be sure that celts had nothing to do with this.

 

And songs have words. Tunes don't. End of story, as simple as that.

 

Cheers,

 

Fer

Edited March 8, 2009 by Fergus_fiddler

[Alan Day]

Here are my two cents:

 

About reading the dots and playing by ear... I've only very recently managed to read music fluently enough and is useful for a couple of things in traditional music, e.g., when you find difficult to play a bar or you don't remember the key or the beginnig of the tune, but I agree very much Tamborileru: expression in traditional music is EVERYTHING. So, when I try to learn a new tune, usually hear as many versions of the tune as possible, then I learn the tune and play it the best I CAN

 

And about competition and snobbery... Uffff! I've seen quite a few of both in my musical life. I began to play regularly at a session 15 years ago at the only - still is - traditional music place in Madrid: Taberna Elisa.

 

The 90's where the years of the folk revival in Spain. You could found there a lot of f*****k snobs, mostly nerds with high degrees in sciences or maths, playing the most bizarre instruments - hurdy-gurdys, rebecs, weird flutes - only for exhibit themselves. When you asked them if they played ITM, the answered: 'Oh, I surpassed that'. I didn`t know that irish music was something that had to be surpassed In fact, if you heared them playing ITM, their playing was crap.

 

Of course, there were nice guys - like the ones from the band 'La Musgaña' -, but they weren't a majority.

 

'competition and snobbery have no place in the wonderful world of music'. Wow, what a statement. Indeed, they SHOULDN'T, but the sad reality is that there are. And a lot. I'm recently discovering the world of english trad. music and I'm delighted. I don't see there the furious competition usually fund at ITM. Perhaps is because english music didn't went to the USA and come back transformed into a Disneyworld merchandising package, like the 'Celtic Music' - revolting word -. Perhaps because wasn't used as a sign of national identity or nationalism, or the amount of professional musicians is significantly smaller. But I feel the playing of such as John Kirpatrick or Brian Peters a lot more 'authentic' and honest that most of irish nowadays bands.

 

Of course, as usual, this is only my opinion and my point of view.

 

Cheers,

 

Fer

I find your comments about snobbery interesting Fer, as I have never ever come across it.It is only since the introduction of these Internet discussion groups that I have found out that it even exists.When I go to sessions we meet to make music ,at the end of the evening we shake hands and go home.At the sessions I attend there are two Hurdy Gurdy players ,but that is because it is a traditional French music instrument,certainly no snobbery there.Does it only exist in Irish music, this snobbery?Should only Irish play it?Or is it that only Irish players can play it properly? The answers are of course NO.

In the early days when we were playing French Traditional music we did hit a bit of snobbery, but this came from a certain Folk Festival Organiser who thought he was a higher being than most musicians,but he was not the sort of person that enjoyed music sessions,he was there mainly to make money out of Folk not for the love of making music.

Al

[Fergus_fiddler]

Thanks for your answer, Alan. I'm of course, talking only about my own experiencies, and I'm glad you didn't found it.

 

But I've found a lot of it. For example, I went 2 years ago to the Irish Fleadh in Caceres - for those who don't know it, it's a gorgeous medieval city in the centre of Spain -. Of course, it's not a 'real' fleadh, is more a gathering of players from all Spain with concerts, sessions - even six in a night! - and workshops.

 

My own teacher - Manus McGuire - was a lovely kind and helpful bloke. But when you went to the session, you found a lot of cold shoulder from the younger irish players - some of them teachers! ,- competition, playing from them of rare tunes instead of popular session ones, speeding up the tunes... a real mess. So I went to bed early enough.

 

What's the problem? I mean, I don't understand it at all. What they do want to demonstrate? Of course they play better, we all knew that!

 

And BTW, I've found too a lot of this stuff in spanish traditional music... I think it's pityful...

 

Cheers,

 

Fer

[Ptarmigan]

But when you went to the session, you found a lot of cold shoulder from the younger irish players - some of them teachers! ,- competition, playing from them of rare tunes instead of popular session ones, speeding up the tunes... a real mess. So I went to bed early enough.

 

What's the problem? I mean, I don't understand it at all. What they do want to demonstrate? Of course they play better, we all knew that!

 

Cheers,

 

Fer

 

Fer, as this thread is straying away from the original topic, I have started one next door on Snobbery, which you might like to check out.

 

That way, this thread can get back to discussing Ears & Notes in peace.

 

Cheers

Dick

[Chris Drinkwater]

When I go to sessions we meet to make music, at the end of the evening we shake hands and go home.

 

Yes, I know Al, being fortunate enough to attend the same session as you and being on the receiving end of one of your farewell handshakes. What a gentleman you are. Definitely a musician of the old school. I think it is a wonderful gesture of bonhomie and appreciation and should be more widespread. Oh, and I am open to farewell hugs, too, where appropriate.

 

Chris

[Hereward]

Oh, and I am open to farewell hugs, too, where appropriate.

 

Chris

 

A handshake is good but I'm not too sure about hugs - Victoria leaves a long shadow with us English.

 

Ian

[Steve Mansfield]

Oh, and I am open to farewell hugs, too, where appropriate.

 

Chris

 

A handshake is good but I'm not too sure about hugs - Victoria leaves a long shadow with us English.

 

Ian

 

I turned up at a friend's 60th birthday session recently and got a welcome hug - fair made the trip well worthwhile in its own right, even before I'd played any of the fine music on offer that afternoon!

 

Mind you when I was a student & playing in sessions in Sheffield in the early 80s, you knew you'd really cracked admission into the inner circle when you got a curt nod and a 'sithee young 'un' at the end of the night ...

[David Barnert]

Aye & as well as that A.I., the Americans call all tunes SONGS!

This has become much more pronounced since the advent of music databases (iTunes, playlists of digital radio stations, etc). The structure of the fields just doesn't have room for genres other than "song," so those of us who listen to tunes and/or movements are always made to feel like 2nd class citizens.

 

Oh, and I am open to farewell hugs, too, where appropriate.

 

Chris

Umm... Would hat be Christopher or Christine?

[Alan Day]

When I go to sessions we meet to make music, at the end of the evening we shake hands and go home.

 

Yes, I know Al, being fortunate enough to attend the same session as you and being on the receiving end of one of your farewell handshakes. What a gentleman you are. Definitely a musician of the old school. I think it is a wonderful gesture of bonhomie and appreciation and should be more widespread. Oh, and I am open to farewell hugs, too, where appropriate.

 

Chris

There and I thought we were just good friends

Al

[catty]

I'm sure there are those for whom this is true. But, there are also those of us who just play the music, and don't find so much time to quibble over all the differences.

 

I'm sorry, but I deeply disagree.

 

With all due respect, you disagree with the statement that some folks "just play the music" and are not so much invested in argy-bargy? Interesting, yet befuddling.