To Transpose Or Not To Transpose ?

[david fabre]

Hello forum.

 

So I have two instruments : a vintage Wheatstone 40b C/G (outstanding) and

a Stagi 30b G/D (average, to say the least)...

Since I sent the first one oversea for renovation and it will be away for several

long months, I turned my attention to the second one, which up to now

was only played by my 3-years-old daughter. I'm begining to find interest in the

G/D system as well for its different range and possibilities.

 

My present dilemma is : should I re-learn the "true" fingerings of the G/D

system so that I can play exactly what I read or hear or should I play it as a

C/G, with the result that I have to transpose everything before being able to play ?

The first possibility requires of course a big effort at the beginning but can be

worth the investment.

 

I actually had the same dilemma for whistle when I added a low G to my collection ;

I decided to re-learn the fingering. It was very disturbing for a few weeks

(or "brain-knotting" as one would say in french), but I suceeded in this ;

the human brain is such a wonderful machine that it can adapt to such things.

However I beleive the effort would be much larger for concertina, especially

for playing chords since the positions have to come somehow "automatically"

under the fingers.

 

I'm sure other players here have faced such a situation and I would be interested

to get opinions. Is there anyone here who has taken up the chalenge to learn both

fingerings and who is able to play both systems fluently ?

 

David

[Jody Kruskal]

Interesting question David. Here’s what I do... as Mark Evans says,”your milage may vary”.

 

First off, I play 4 different keys of Anglo but 98% of the time it’s the G/D. I think in terms of G/D no matter which instrument I’m actually playing. That is, I treat all of my Anglos as transposing instruments except for the G/D Anglo which plays in concert pitch. Wind players do this all the time. I can read music on the concertina but would prefer not to think about the names of notes and chords at all. I find reading inhibiting and would prefer to play strictly by ear though I don't always get that luxury.

 

The only time I really need to bring all of my concertinas to a gig is when I play English Country Dances (Playford). This is always a sight reading situation. When I read the dots on something other than the G/D, I transpose by sight. For some tunes I’m just not quick enough to do that accurately so if the tunes are tricky, I mark the score to help me out. Mostly I transpose the chord names and a few fingerings so I can read them as if I were playing a G/D and leave the melody alone.

 

I only have to work out a few of these harder tunes to prepare for a dance. This works for me since I only play a few of these dances per year, the callers always tell me the rep. ahead of time and most of the tunes I know already or they are easy to begin with.

 

The thought of being able to think in concert pitch on my four different keyed concertinas is daunting. My mind just does not work that way.

[anglo]

First off, I play 4 different keys of Anglo but 98% of the time it’s the G/D. I think in terms of G/D no matter which instrument I’m actually playing. That is, I treat all of my Anglos as transposing instruments except for the G/D Anglo which plays in concert pitch. Wind players do this all the time. I can read music on the concertina but would prefer not to think about the names of notes and chords at all. I find reading inhibiting and would prefer to play strictly by ear though I don't always get that luxury.

 

 

What keys, Jody? Mine are G/D, Bb/F and C/G. I mostly play an "English" style. I always transpose in my head to C, though my main instrument (mostly morris and song accomp.) has always been the G/D. But now for solo singing I use the C/G more. But if I sightread something in on the G row, for the most part I still think of it in C, whatever key it's written in. Thank god for tonic sol-fa (do-re-me, moveable do).

 

I get confused in the minor though

[Anglo-Irishman]

I'm sure other players here have faced such a situation and I would be interested

to get opinions. Is there anyone here who has taken up the chalenge to learn both

fingerings and who is able to play both systems fluently ?

 

David

 

Hi, David,

 

I'm not in Jody's class as a player, but my approach is similar to his. One difference is, that I do not sight read for the Anglo at all. It's a very intuitive instrument with regard to harmonisation. If you think of the harmonic (chord) structure behind the melody, and let this influence your push/pull activity, you'll usually have the right notes and the right chords. Maybe this is only me, because I play several chording stringed instruments, but it works.

 

You know that guitarists and banjoists use capos for "difficult" keys - Eb is one of them, but the chords are really easy if you capo the first fret, and use the chord shapes for the key of D. You are really transposing the instrument to play a difficult key with easy fingering.

 

You can't capo an Anglo, so if you want to make life tolerable in distant keys, you need a transposed Anglo. At my level of playing, C, G and D major are easy enough on my C/G Anglo. If I had to play mostly in D and A, I'd want a G/D anglo. This is historically quite acceptable. In the early days, the Salvation Army played Anglo concertinas, though their main form musical expression was the brass band. Brass instruments play a lot in Ab and Eb, so to be able to play with them, the Salvation Army Anglos were in Ab/Eb. That appears to be where this rather odd-looking tuning came from!

 

To answer your question: it is not reasonable to expect to play EVERY tune you can play on one Anglo in the SAME KEY on an Anglo with a different tuning. A G/D or Ab/Eb Anglo are for playing in keys that are "out of reach" of a standard C/G, using the same fingering.

 

Hote this helps!

 

Cheers,

John

[david fabre]

Hello Jody,

 

I can read music on the concertina but would prefer not to think about the names of notes and chords at all. I find reading inhibiting and would prefer to play strictly by ear though I don't always get that luxury.

I also read less and less and tend to play by hear but I keep on thinking about the names of the notes.

My mind does not work as yours...

 

 

When I read the dots on something other than the G/D, I transpose by sight. For some tunes I’m just not quick enough to do that accurately so if the tunes are tricky, I mark the score to help me out. Mostly I transpose the chord names and a few fingerings so I can read them as if I were playing a G/D and leave the melody alone.

 

This is also the way I'm doing now ; However I don't find this way very satisfying. Especially

when I want to play a tune that I already know, and I find frustrating to have to re-learn it "wrong".

I know however that this is the way horn & sax players do.

 

The thought of being able to think in concert pitch on my four different keyed concertinas is daunting. My mind just does not work that way.

 

For the whistle I was able to learn two systems but would certainly not take the trouble to

learn other ones ! However I noticed that knowing two fingerings increased somehow my versatility

on other instruments. For example when I pick up a Bb whistle, I can either play it with "D" fingerings

(thus transposing down four semitones) or with "G" fingerings (thus transposing up 3 semitones)

Edited October 1, 2008 by david fabre

[david fabre]

Thank god for tonic sol-fa (do-re-me, moveable do).

 

Unfortunately this trick does not work for french musicians, because

we don't use the letters but only the do-re-mi system and do always mean C.

[david fabre]

A G/D or Ab/Eb Anglo are for playing in keys that are "out of reach" of a standard C/G, using the same fingering.

 

 

Hello John,

 

To my point of view the interest of G/D compared to C/G is not so much the different keys

(I also play mostly in the keys of G and D and they are availible easily on both instruments)

but the RANGE. the G/D is lower and is more suited to chorded style (IMO).

Now if I were to play often with brass instruments I would certainly choose a Bb/F or Ab/Eb

and consider it as a transposing instrument (and by doing so I would still be able

to communicate with brass players who also transpose).

 

Regards !

David

[hjcjones]

Why do you want to transpose? If you're playing along with others and you have to go along with the keys they're playing in, then of course you have no choice. Same if you're accompanying singing and need to pitch to the voice. But if you're just playing solo then it doesn't matter - just play the tune as before and hear it in a different key.

 

However it is worth experimenting with transposing, since the character is very different, especially if you're playing chords. On a G/D, playing in G is deep and mellow, and you have a lot of possibilities for chords and bass runs - on a C/G the sound is much brighter and the chord options are different. C on a G/D is like playing in F on a C/G - again, very different in character because of the chords and cross-rowing.

 

I can't play from music so I transpose by ear. This isn't as complicated as it sound, I simply choose the set of fingerings and chords by ear. Unless they're tunes I'll be playing with others, I pick the key and the instrument which I think best suits the tune, regardless of what key it was written or played in when I first learned it.

[Mark Evans]

Hello David,

 

Transposing...you've gotten some good advice. If you play with others...no choice unless you can talk them into playing in your key. As a non AC player I can't imagine the complications particularly if you play a cross-row technique. The EC is an easy matter as our outside rows are the sharps and flats. At least in Irish music, you run into varriant keys. I've picked up a number of off the beaten path tunes in one key or other only to learn at session that one or two other players know them in another key. I now play a little game of transposing any new tune aquisition into other folk related keys on the fly just to be ready. It's fun...in a very S & M sort of way.

 

My wife Doninique has undertaken the study of Baroque violin and brought her lovely instrument to session last night to show one of our fiddlers, Connie. Their fiddles were both made in Germany within a decade of each other. Dominique's instrument still has the original short scale neck, is tuned to A= 415 and strung with gut. We wanted to play with her on a Christmas carol she had just worked out in C, so she suggested we just simply play in B-natural. Connie the fiddler, George our bousouki player and I just up and gave it a try. We sounded okay. George of course cheated with a capo . Connie and I were extremely surprised and proud of ourselves.

Edited October 1, 2008 by Mark Evans

[david fabre]

Why do you want to transpose?

 

You just gave the answer : because I want to play along with other musicians !

The trouble is that right now as my C/G is away for reparation I am not able

to play anything in tune with others using the G/D

However I try to make this an opportunity to learn new ways of playing.

 

I will see when my Wheatstone is back :

maybe I will give the stagi back to my daughter and never use a G/D again ;

maybe I will become an adept of G/D and will have to order a decent one...

 

David

[david fabre]

Hi Mark

 

I've never seen a baroque fiddle in 415... why can't it be retuned to 440 by stretching the strings ?

 

It's fun...in a very S & M sort of way.

What does S&M mean ? Sado-masochist ???

[Mark Evans]

Hi Mark

 

I've never seen a baroque fiddle in 415... why can't it be retuned to 440 by stretching the strings ?

 

It's fun...in a very S & M sort of way.

What does S&M mean ? Sado-masochist ???

 

Yes to the second question....

 

I've been assured the fiddle can take 440, but not in one shot. To be safe, an instrument made in 1790 with the original neck the strings should be brought up half way and letting it settle in, then bringing it on up would be okay. I've begun a gentle campain to talk Dominique into doing just that.

[geoffwright]

Whats the problem? If you read an F, play an F - why the need for any transposing?

I see enough people able to play chords to G and D tunes on a C/G so can't see the need for both?

 

Its back to the same old story - practise your scales in either direction, across the rows, and you will soon learn most of the alternative notes on the box - you don't HAVE to play in G on the G row.

[CaryK]

Hello David,

 

I transpose, but only when playing with other musicians. I play mainly ITM. I have an A/E with a beautiful tone and a C/G with somewhat anemic and relatively thin-sounding reeds. I play cross-row style and learn the tunes on the C/G. I switch to the A/E because I like its tone for a particular tune, while playing solo.

 

When I purchased the A/E I thought I would learn all the keys I most often play in (C, G, D, F, and A)with the new fingerings just for the A/E. I was naive and found that to be doable but a lot of trouble.

 

On a few occassions a year I am asked to play with other musicians. I get the sheet music and transpose it so I can play the cross-row fingerings I learned on the C/G on my much better sounding A/E. So a tune in D gets played with Key of F fingerings on my A/E and it comes out in D. I find no trouble with this process, just takes preparation time.

 

I wish I had the skill to be able to transpose by ear and play spontaneously in new keys, but I don't. I take the sheet music, memorize it after much practice, and then get rid of it and play it from memory changing its expression or tempo to fit how the piece is going to be played with others, or if going solo, to my own ear and respecting the type of musical tradition the tune or song is from.

[Jim Besser]

I'm sure other players here have faced such a situation and I would be interested

to get opinions. Is there anyone here who has taken up the chalenge to learn both

fingerings and who is able to play both systems fluently ?

 

I find it very helpful to learn tunes on both my c/g and g/d, in the correct keys. That has greatly improved my ability to sit down with other musicians and quickly pick up tunes I've never played before.

 

Seems to me that Anglo players too often get locked into playing tunes exactly the same way, over and over again. That may feel comfortable, but I suspect it reduces one's ability to improvise and pick stuff up by ear. At least for me, switching instruments forces me out of the ruts that I fall into too easily.

Edited October 1, 2008 by Jim Besser

[david fabre]

I'm sure other players here have faced such a situation and I would be interested

to get opinions. Is there anyone here who has taken up the chalenge to learn both

fingerings and who is able to play both systems fluently ?

 

I find it very helpful to learn tunes on both my c/g and g/d, in the correct keys. That has greatly improved my ability to sit down with other musicians and quickly pick up tunes I've never played before.

 

Seems to me that Anglo players too often get locked into playing tunes exactly the same way, over and over again. That may feel comfortable, but I suspect it reduces one's ability to improvise and pick stuff up by ear. At least for me, switching instruments forces me out of the ruts that I fall into too easily.

 

Hello Jim and thanks for sharing your experience.

This encourages me to continue my exploration of the possibilities of a G/D as a second instrument.

[Brian Peters]

Seems to me that Anglo players too often get locked into playing tunes exactly the same way, over and over again. That may feel comfortable, but I suspect it reduces one's ability to improvise and pick stuff up by ear.

Jim is right. It can be a useful exercise to take a tune - preferably a simple and familiar one to begin with - and attempt to play it by ear in as many keys as possible. I've just picked up my C/G anglo and got through 'Shepherd's Hey' - with chordal accompaniment - in C, G (in both high and low register), D, A and (not very fluently, I admit!) E and B flat. I seem to remember Peter Trimming years ago suggesting 'Grandfather's Clock' as another suitable tune for multiple key practice. The further you get from the 'home' keys, the less logical the fingering becomes, but it certainly familiarises you with the dusty buttons. Relearning the tune a different way strikes some people as confusing, but the more you do it the more flexible your playing becomes. And, as Howard said, the tune takes on a new character as each alternative fingering restricts or opens up different chordal options.

 

Having said that, if you're particularly wedded to the nice solid thump of chorded, 'English-style' anglo playing, a tune in D is going to be easier to chord, and to sound happier, on a G/D even though it may be perfectly possible to play it on a C/G.

[michael sam wild]

I agree with Brian's comments. I'm trying out tunes in keys they are written in from old collections. Some work, others don't. Barry Callaghan put Go to Berwick Johnny in G in HardcoreEnglish but in Vickers and Kershaw it's in F so I try that and it works OK. Useful when Northumbrian pipers are doing it. matt Seattle says it was a fiddle tune so G would be OK but a lot of fiddlers like F.

 

I like Brian's Farewell Manchester on Anglophilia which uses several keys and gets the broken chords in, which suit it, rather than big full chords that can drown the melody

I have a C/G 26 button and am fairly happy in C,F,G,D,A,Am,Em, Dm and you can always fudge some notes as you do on a mouthorgan!

I have a 30 button G/D which is nice for the lower notes and singing to. Strangely I always play that along the rows like two mouthorgans, my first instrument whereas on the C/G I go where I need to, particularly with Irish tunes and nifty hornpipes