Breaking In New Concertina Reeds

[Dirge]

Last year I got chatting to a violin dealer at a folk event, who, at that point, had no customers and was happy to be distracted.

 

Conversation moved round to 'how use improved concertinas'. Anyway the fiddle dealer assured me that a regularly played violin was also better for it, noticeably so. I asked if he added a premium when pricing an instrument that had been in regular use and he said he didn't but that they were always the first ones to sell.

 

There are two points here, the obvious one of course is that violins also (apparently?) benefit from hard use, but also this is a dealer, note; it's not the man who has 'learnt to get the best out of his instrument' but a relatively impartial assessor.

[toshea]

John and Dirge,

 

There is a metallergic effect on metals and you are incorrect to say that it is not the case.

 

And Dirge, in regards to violins, it is established that the sound quality changes of the vintage, rare instruments, are partly dueto the aging effects of the wood and varnish.

 

It is not just your playing technique! You should not disregard all science!

 

Tim

[Anglo-Irishman]

John and Dirge,

 

There is a metallergic effect on metals and you are incorrect to say that it is not the case.

 

And Dirge, in regards to violins, it is established that the sound quality changes of the vintage, rare instruments, are partly dueto the aging effects of the wood and varnish.

 

It is not just your playing technique! You should not disregard all science!

 

Tim

Hey, Tim,

Who's disregarding science????

 

Neither Dirge nor I denied material ageing/maturing!

 

What would, to my mind, be unscientific, would be to stop your investigations aftrer finding one factor in a system as complex as a concertina (even without its player) that might explain the observed phenomenon. And the reeds are just one factor of several.

 

As someone pointed out, there is quite a bit of wood in a concertina, and it's directly coupled to the reeds. And different woods of different ages (see Dirge's violin example) behave acoustically in different ways.

Then there's the bellows: my much maligned Stagi is twice the instrument it was, timbre-wise, since I got a Concertina Connection bellows for it. Could be that good quality bellows also need "playing in" to give optimal control. (A singer's vocal chords don't perform well if the diaphragm isn't strong enough to carry the voice - so why should concertina reeds be that different?)

And then there's the aspect that frequent playing may promote the ageing/maturing processes, whether in the metal, the wood or the leather.

 

Consider one point, though: give a mediochre player an acknowlegedly good instrument (concertina, violin, piano, what you will), and give a good player an acknowlegedly mediochre instrument. I'll bet what you want to hear more of is the music played by the good player on the mediochre instrument!

 

This is not to deny that, in the hands of the same player - especially a good one - you will hear the difference between te instruments.

 

Think global - scientists do that these days!

 

Cheers,

John

[toshea]

"There, it has nothing to do with metallurgy, of course - but the messge is the same. "

 

 

 

John,

 

Only want to put metallergy back in the mix where it belongs. I feel that metallergic changes over time are a significant factor to be considered in assessing progression in reed sound.

 

Wood and bellows and player are, of course, important also, but remember that the reed actually initiates the sound.

 

Regards, Tim

[stella24]

I must give support to Tim and his fact based offering that metal stressed, hardens over time. Again, i repeat that the lower reeds i took a little too much out of played flat when pushed, and years after no longer do. To clarify; if anything, I play them harder now! Notice, I am not speaking of just one reed here. I would take the next step and say that as they harden the reed is slightly more resistive to change in pitch but not response. Richard was asking what to expect. Why that lovely nasal pure tone one associates with traditional handmade reeds!

[Theo]

I must give support to Tim and his fact based offering that metal stressed, hardens over time. Again, i repeat that the lower reeds i took a little too much out of played flat when pushed, and years after no longer do. To clarify; if anything, I play them harder now! Notice, I am not speaking of just one reed here. I would take the next step and say that as they harden the reed is slightly more resistive to change in pitch but not response. Richard was asking what to expect. Why that lovely nasal pure tone one associates with traditional handmade reeds!

 

This effect might also be to do with changes to the valve leather as a result of time and use. If valves don't open fully the pitch will be affected, usually flattened. This effect might vary with playing pressure and give the results described above. Of course this hypothesis does not deny the possibility of changes in the reed.

 

To take a step back and look at the whole picture, in my mind there are two parts to this discussion which, for clarity, are best kept apart:

 

1 observations that there are perceptible changes in the performance of a concertina over time

 

2 hypotheses to explain any observed changes

[Anglo-Irishman]

Only want to put metallergy back in the mix where it belongs. I feel that metallergic changes over time are a significant factor to be considered in assessing progression in reed sound.

 

Wood and bellows and player are, of course, important also, but remember that the reed actually initiates the sound.

 

Tim,

That's fine! It just sounded as if you were singling the metallurgy out as the ONLY factor. Sorry I misunderstood you.

 

By the way, in the violin - which also improves with maturity - it's easy to overlook the fact that its sound is also initiated by metal components, the strings!

 

Cheers,

John

[Larry Stout]

Most violinists don't use metal strings (except for the E). Gut or, more likely these days, perlon give a better tone. Thr folklore (and for all I know the science) about the improvement in violins which comes with playing is that the change is to the wood and the varnish. At any rate the strings are changed fairly regularly and the relevant aging is measured in decades rather than months.

 

For most musical instruments I know of great age is not a good thing. Certainly the part which produces the sound usually needs to be replaced more often than once a century. The reeds in my concertinas range from about 80 to 160 years old. A piano might well have beaten itself into major disrepair at similar age and a woodwind might well have developed serious cracks. The brass instruments from the Civil war era played by the regimental band at ISU all needed major restoration to be made playable.

 

Concertinas are amazing for their durability.

[d.elliott]

Only want to put metallergy back in the mix where it belongs. I feel that metallergic changes over time are a significant factor to be considered in assessing progression in reed sound.

 

Wood and bellows and player are, of course, important also, but remember that the reed actually initiates the sound.

 

Tim,

That's fine! It just sounded as if you were singling the metallurgy out as the ONLY factor. Sorry I misunderstood you.

 

By the way, in the violin - which also improves with maturity - it's easy to overlook the fact that its sound is also initiated by metal components, the strings!

 

Cheers,

John

 

John.Tim, Theo etc etc etc

 

If you look back to my first contribution of this thread, I explained that I could not personally validate the the statements that I made, I don't have a metl-lab at my disposal anymore, but what I didn't say is that I used to have, and that I have some practical knowledge of metalographic issues.

 

1. we agree that vibration changes the reeds metalographic structure, it has a hardening effect and will ultimately tend to metal fatigue, particularly if there are stress raisers from bad tuning practise.

2. brass reeds also age harden

3. it is well known that vibrations can reduce and effect stress distributions and I suggested that this may equalise reed set and thus change (improve) reed performance

4. It is also fairly well understood that the woodwork, specifically the reed pans, act as the sounding board which need to be stressed and resonating.

 

There are plenty of good linkages to explain a concertina's change with age, the only issue to me is why does everyone think that the changes are always going to be beneficial? has anyone ever reported an adverse effect? or are these just faults that keep people like me amused?

 

Dave

[Henrik Müller]

... In that time, the tone of the most frequently played reeds has perceptably mellowed and sweetened.

It is possible to tell which reeds I use most, and which don't get used as much just from listening...

My experience exactly: the instrument I built has now been played for two years and

when I play in F (which I rarely do) the Bb sounds different from its closest neighbours - a little harsher.

/Henrik

[Dana Johnson]

Years ago I experimented on a reed hardening it to a point where it would snap if bent very far. I slowly de-tempered it eventually to the point where it could be easily bent and stay bent. through out this process, it's pitch didn't change even though it's metallurgical properties changed a great deal. Stress relieving, work hardening, evening out it's bending curve all may effect the reed's tone, but since much of the spectrum of the reed is due to the non sinusoidal component of it's vibration caused primarily by the effect of the air flow accelerating the reed in half it's cycle and retarding it on the other. exactly how these metallurgical changes affect this isn't at all clear to me. There could as easily be a "bedding" phenomenon going on between the reed shoe and the wood. Certain ideas may seem obvious, that doesn't make them correct. Decent experiments are required to validate any hypothesis.

Beyond that, it is worth knowing that if you buy a concertina that sounds a little harsh when new it will likely sound much better after a good bit of playing where one that sounds suitably mellow from the start may become dull with playing. You don't need to know why to make use of the phenomenon.

Dana

[Robert Booth]

Connected qustion: For how long can the changes be expected to continue, or, put another way, would the reeds continue to change for the potentially hundred plus years that some concertinas can achieve? Is there a point of stasis? A point of diminishing returns?

Do we have, as mentioned above, reports of decaying tonal quality in reeds?

[m3838]

Connected qustion: For how long can the changes be expected to continue, or, put another way, would the reeds continue to change for the potentially hundred plus years that some concertinas can achieve? Is there a point of stasis? A point of diminishing returns?

Do we have, as mentioned above, reports of decaying tonal quality in reeds?

Has anybody tried to wash and clean old reeds in kerosene and scrape off their film of dirt, accumulated over hundred years? Does the sound become harsher? It was precisely my observation, when I "fixed" an old Paolo Soprany CBA of mine. The results were devastating - deep warm tone, for which I bought it was gone and become harsh, metallic, tinny and "ringy".

Another observation is toy harmonica with plastic reeds. Very sweet and round tone, no harshness whatsoever.

Why brass reeds sound differently from Steel and why woodwinds sound so attractive with wooden reeds?

Is there a difference in sound between different materials and does it come from the structure or the surface?

Do mirror polished reeds with round edges sound sweeter?