Scottish Music

[Robert Booth]

Over in the other thread about the interest factor of Irish music. yankeeclipper mentioned that he prefers Scottish sessions 'cause of their variety.

 

Brings to mind a question that I've wondered about for a while: Is there a discernable difference in the musics of the two nations, and how would a rough, unlettered fella like me be able to tell the difference just from listening?

 

If there are notable differences just what are they, and howcome?

 

Discuss, and report back to me

 

Respectfully submitted,

Robert

[John Wild]

Over in the other thread about the interest factor of Irish music. yankeeclipper mentioned that he prefers Scottish sessions 'cause of their variety.

 

Brings to mind a question that I've wondered about for a while: Is there a discernable difference in the musics of the two nations, and how would a rough, unlettered fella like me be able to tell the difference just from listening?

 

If there are notable differences just what are they, and howcome?

 

Discuss, and report back to me

 

Respectfully submitted,

Robert

 

My experience may be limited but I speak as a Scot who was living and working in the South of England before discovering I could play a musical instrument. In the relatively small number of occasions when I have gone to a music session in Scotland, I have found several main differences to music sessions in England.

 

One is the tunes which are most common in a Scottish session are not those most common in an English session, and vice versa, though there are common tunes found in both. I needed a second repertoire to fully join in the Scottish session. The other main difference is that in a session in Scotland, the fiddle is the dominant instrument. This may not be true everywhere - it may only be a reflection of the particular sessions I attended. Following from that, in the sessions in Scotland, more of the session tunes were in the key of A, as appropriate to the fiddle.

 

no doubt others will have different experiences.

 

- John Wild

[Robert Booth]

Thanks for the reply. These past six or seven years have been a huge education for me, not just the instrument, but the musics that go along with it. Virtually everything i know about those two I have learned from this site and the members here. Previously I'd not paid much attention to British Folk Music at all.

 

I'd known about the border ballads and their transportation to North America, also the tradition of the pipes in Scotland, but have missed the subtle differences of the "Irish" style and the "Scottish" style.

 

I assume that tunes and songs travel freely, and that it might be hard to point out specific differnces but I do want to satisfy my curiosity. I'm imagining that there is a very large catagory of style, within which there are regional variations, but was wondering how to put my finger on the one versus the other.

 

Related question: Does the music of Wales have it's own imprint, one that can be explained?

Thanks,

Rob

[spindizzy]

Thanks for the reply. These past six or seven years have been a huge education for me, not just the instrument, but the musics that go along with it. Virtually everything i know about those two I have learned from this site and the members here. Previously I'd not paid much attention to British Folk Music at all.

 

I'd known about the border ballads and their transportation to North America, also the tradition of the pipes in Scotland, but have missed the subtle differences of the "Irish" style and the "Scottish" style.

 

I assume that tunes and songs travel freely, and that it might be hard to point out specific differnces but I do want to satisfy my curiosity. I'm imagining that there is a very large catagory of style, within which there are regional variations, but was wondering how to put my finger on the one versus the other.

 

Related question: Does the music of Wales have it's own imprint, one that can be explained?

Thanks,

Rob

 

This has some VERY small snippets from my favourite welsh trad band.

Pigyn Clust

I'd find it hard to say that a tune was welsh if I heard it out of context. there are irish and breton flavours.

The main tradition seems to be more song based than and if you hear that it's recognisably welsh (after all it's in welsh )

 

If you rummage around the above site for fflach:trad you'll find a load of welsh bands... pity the snippets are so small.

[Anglo-Irishman]

I assume that tunes and songs travel freely, and that it might be hard to point out specific differnces but I do want to satisfy my curiosity. I'm imagining that there is a very large catagory of style, within which there are regional variations, but was wondering how to put my finger on the one versus the other.

 

Rob,

 

"Regional variations" is perhaps the key phrase.

As an Irishman who went to primary school in the Highlands of Scotland, I look at it this way:

 

Ireland and Scotland form a sort of cultural continuum. County Cork and the Shetland Islands are as different as day and night, but ther's no really clear dividing line anywhere between. My native Province of Ulster is at the centre of this continuum - and has been since the bronze age (the time of the old sagas), certainly since the middle of the first millennium AD. It is the geographical link - from the northeast corner of Ireland, you can see Scotland quite distinctly. You can row or sail across in a small boat.

 

The north of Scotland was missioned by an Ulster abbot, St. Columba, and as we well know, the influence of missionaries has always had as much cultural as theological. The fact is, that the Gaelic spoken in the Western Isles and parts of the mainland of Scotland is derived from Irish.

In the Viking era, it was Norwegians who settled in both Scotland and Ireland (although the old Irish annals refer to them as "Danes"), so even the intrusion was the same.

Much later, in the 17th century, the Plantation of Ulster saw an influx of settlers from the south and east of Scotland, so the dialect of English spoken there is clearly Scots-influenced (and the Ulster accents are quite distinct from accents in the rest of Ireland). So, basically, Scotland has a Highland and Island culture based on the Irish language, and Ireland has a northern province whose culture is based partly on the Scots language.

I'm not a fiddler, but I have read that the Irish fiddle style prevalent in Donegal (Ulster) more resembles some Scottish fiddle styles that it resembles the style of Co. Clare (Connaught), for instance.

 

Songs do, of course, travel within this continuum. Searching the Internet for songs about my birthplace, Ballymena, Co.Antrim, I found only one - and that was no more or less than a "relocated" version of the south-west Scottish song "The Braes o'Balquhidder". I haven't got the Gaelic (Scottish or Irish!) so I can't make a statement about songs in that language. I do know from experience that unaccompanied Gaelic singing from the Scottish Isles is similar to that from the West of Ireland. And "lilting" is known in both areas - probably for purely economic reasons, because people too isolated or too poor to obtain fiddles still need dance music!

 

Of course a lot has happened in both Scotland and Ireland since the 17th century. The Irish have had their Nationalist uprisings against the English Crown, and the Scots have had their Jacobite uprisings against the Hanoverian Crown. These have left us with songs whose content is unambiguously Irish and Scottish, respectively. The Irish Famine and the Highland Clearances are further distinguishing influences among many.

It is, of course, easier to locate songs than dance tunes, because the former are sung with a distinct accent. But that only indicates where this version of the song comes from now. Where it originated is often ambiguous. And often it's impossible to tell whether the tune has the same origin as the lyric, or whether the tune was "imported". The Burns song "The Lea Rig" is definitely Scots, and Loyalist song "The Orange Lily-O" is definitely Irish - but they're sung to the same tune!

 

Musicologically, there are probably certain features of dance music - like the "snap" - that are more typical of Scotland, and others that are more typical of Ireland. Off the top of my head, the only dance rhythm I can think of that I've heard in Scotland but not in Ireland is the Strathspey, which tends to use the "snap" a lot.

 

In short: some aspects of Irish and Scottish culture - including music - are closer to each other than they are to other aspects of their own country. This must make it very difficult for outsiders. I tend to go by where I heard the tune or song. But this is not 100% reliable. Might be a tune popular in Ireland that originated in Scotland, or vice versa.

 

At least you needn't feel too bad about having difficulty distinguishing the two! ;-)

 

Cheers,

John

[P Carr]

Having recently come back from a wonderful flute weekend in Ireland, it seems to me imho that there may be an enormous difference between Irish and Scottish sessions.

 

Most of the Irish sessions played mainly reels, and mainly in the keys of D and G. There were a few jig sets as well, but only a few.

 

In the Scottish sessions I've played in, we tend to have far more variety in an evening. We may play a few sets of pipe marches, perhaps a march strathspey reel set or two, reels, jigs but also airs and waltzes. The pace tends to vary more, with slower tunes interspersed between quicker sets, and there can be more variety in the keys. Many pipe marches are in A dorian, loads of tunes are in E minor, A minor and B minor - and we might even ocasionally play in F.

 

But I guess it depends where you play - and the interests of the people you play with.

 

Cheers,

Pamela

[yankeeclipper]

In the Scottish sessions I've played in, we tend to have far more variety in an evening. We may play a few sets of pipe marches, perhaps a march strathspey reel set or two, reels, jigs but also airs and waltzes. The pace tends to vary more, with slower tunes interspersed between quicker sets, and there can be more variety in the keys. Many pipe marches are in A dorian, loads of tunes are in E minor, A minor and B minor - and we might even ocasionally play in F.

Exactly my experience living three years in a remote corner of the Northwest Highlands. Lots of variety, varied pacing, relaxed and welcoming atmosphere - none of the exclusive reel-to-reel monotony I've often found in ITM sessions.

[hjcjones]

I'm not an expert on Scottish music, but I'd say the difference is in playing styles rather than the material. Whilst each tradition of course has its own unique material, other tunes have travelled. For example, the tune "Flowers of Edinburgh" turns up frequently in Scottish, Irish and English traditions (and for all I know, Welsh too) but is played with a different "accent" in each. Once you have grasped the characteristics of the styles (which you can only do by listening) it is usually (but not always) possible to identify the style, but not necessarily the origin of the tune.

 

It's like comparing American and British English - both essentially the same languages, but with different accents, some differences in vocabulary, and some expressions which are distinctively their own.

[Robert Booth]

well, this is fasinating. As I said before, Just about everything I know about this style I've learned from members here. Thanks all!

 

I shall have to do much more listening, but now with a better tuned ear.

It is well known how the European immigrants brought it all here, but I was pretty vague on the antecedents of all of the above.

 

I've heard plenty of names of Irish musicians (c.net and Anglo International) and I enjoy their work; what might be some names of Scottish musicians out there that I could hear playing some of the materials mentioned above? (or does that signify?)

Rob

[Henk van Aalten]

Rob,

 

In general I can confirm (from own experience) what has been said already about the difference between Irish and Scottish sessions: more variation and more fiddle-centered.

 

I've heard plenty of names of Irish musicians (c.net and Anglo International) and I enjoy their work; what might be some names of Scottish musicians out there that I could hear playing some of the materials mentioned above? (or does that signify?)

Rob

 

On YouTube there is this playing by Graham Irvine where the difference between Scottish and Irish is (imho) nicely demonstrated in one set of tunes: a march, a strathspey, a reel. The first one (March) sounds to me not specific Irish or Scottish. The Strathspey sounds 100% Scottish (with the specific short-long long-short note sequence). The reel has a "Scottish Flavor" but could be Irish.

 

BTW: during my search on YouTube if found some very impressive Scottish fiddling.

 

To learn more just listen, listen and listen.

 

Enjoy!

[chiton1]

well, this is fasinating. As I said before, Just about everything I know about this style I've learned from members here. Thanks all!

 

I shall have to do much more listening, but now with a better tuned ear.

It is well known how the European immigrants brought it all here, but I was pretty vague on the antecedents of all of the above.

 

I've heard plenty of names of Irish musicians (c.net and Anglo International) and I enjoy their work; what might be some names of Scottish musicians out there that I could hear playing some of the materials mentioned above? (or does that signify?)

Rob

 

Simon Thoumire is Scottish and not to be missed!

[Samantha]

Our very own David Corner is a fair exponent of Scottish tunes on concertina too - I don't know if there are recordings available?

[Henk van Aalten]

Our very own David Corner is a fair exponent of Scottish tunes on concertina too - I don't know if there are recordings available?

You could ask him ?

[Ptarmigan]

Hey Rob,

 

If you are interested in hearing Scottish Concertina players, as well as the aforementioned

you should also check out Norman Chalmers of "Jock Tamson's Bairns" fame.

 

Also Stuart Eydmann of "Whistlebinkies" fame.

 

Cheers

Dick

[davidcorner]

Our very own David Corner is a fair exponent of Scottish tunes on concertina too - I don't know if there are recordings available?

You could ask him ?

I'm afraid not.

 

I'm not an expert on Scottish music, but I'd say the difference is in playing styles rather than the material. Whilst each tradition of course has its own unique material, other tunes have travelled. For example, the tune "Flowers of Edinburgh" turns up frequently in Scottish, Irish and English traditions (and for all I know, Welsh too) but is played with a different "accent" in each. Once you have grasped the characteristics of the styles (which you can only do by listening) it is usually (but not always) possible to identify the style, but not necessarily the origin of the tune.

No, there's a lot of different material played in Scotland.

The music ranges from the fiddle music written and collected by Neil Gow and his contemporaries, through the highly developed style of Scott Skinner, to pipe music written for the Scottish pipes, but played on every other folk instrument.

And that's not to mention the distinct Shetland tradition.

As for tune types, as well as reels, jigs and hornpipes, there's strathspeys, uniquely Scottish, and a range of marches, most but not all of them from the pipe tradition.

Then, from the fiddle tradition, there's all the slow airs, including the famous "Neil Gow's Lament on the Death of his Second Wife".

Of course there are common tunes which have been adapted to different styles, such as "John MacNeil's Reel", written by Peter Milne, a contemporary of Scott Skinner, but now found in many versions - such as "Big John's Reel" in Canada.

[Ptarmigan]

John wrote:

Off the top of my head, the only dance rhythm I can think of that I've heard in Scotland but not in Ireland is the Strathspey, which tends to use the "snap" a lot.

Aye John, but around here in North Antrim & especially over in Donegal & Fermanagh, you will hear lots of Strathspeys being played .......... however, their rhythm has been modified, smoothed out a little & they call them Flings.

Very different to the original concept, but still wonderful tunes.

 

Also, in North Antrim you will hear lots more Marches per session, than in most sessions further south.

 

Our sessions around here, thankfully, tend to feature a much greater variety of tunes, than most of the sessions I've been to further south.

 

When I sessioned in Scotland, back in the 70s & 80s, there was very little difference between any Irish session & the few Scottish sessions there were, back then. Nearly all the tunes were Irish. However, sessions have changed dramatically over the past 40 years in Scotland. Last time I attended a session in Scotland, I kept my Fiddle in it's case ...... cause they were all playing Scottish tunes!

 

Cheers

Dick

Edited April 24, 2008 by Ptarmigan

[Anglo-Irishman]

Also, in North Antrim you will hear lots more Marches per session, than in most sessions further south.

 

Our sessions around here, thankfully, tend to feature a much greater variety of tunes, than most of the sessions I've been to further south.

 

Dick,

Stop, you're making me homesick!

 

My last Irish address was in Lisburn, but I was born in Ballymena, which is definitely within easy reach of the Causeway Coast ...

 

I'm not a great fan of sessions, unless there's a bit of variety - meaning plenty of songs!

 

Cheers,

John

[Robert Booth]

Great.

I've got a little list, and shall set about tracking them down.

 

Especial thanks to John the Anglo-Irishman for the mini-essay on the historical side of things.

 

Lots of good minds here.