Problem: Double Sounding Keys On Ec

[buikligger]

Hi friends,

 

i have a treble English concertina composed of old Wheatstone and Lachenal components. Up till recently it has done it's job very well. But now i have a problem with 'double sounding'. When I press the keys ^F (fourth key) , ^c (fifth key) (with my left pinky) the problem is the biggest; when i press the F and c (with my left ringfinger) the problem is a bit less but still existing. The harder i press or pull the bellows the bigger the probelem is. No problem with the other left hand keys and right hand keys. Do you see any solutions? Thanks beforehand for the suggestions.

 

kind greetings

 

Dirk, Belgium

[Paul Read]

Hi friends,

 

i have a treble English concertina composed of old Wheatstone and Lachenal components. Up till recently it has done it's job very well. But now i have a problem with 'double sounding'. When I press the keys ^F (fourth key) , ^c (fifth key) (with my left pinky) the problem is the biggest; when i press the F and c (with my left ringfinger) the problem is a bit less but still existing. The harder i press or pull the bellows the bigger the probelem is. No problem with the other left hand keys and right hand keys. Do you see any solutions? Thanks beforehand for the suggestions.

 

kind greetings

 

Dirk, Belgium

Dirk,

It is most likely that one or more of the triangular blocks supporting the reed pan have come loose (failed glue). Just open her up and re-set the block (i.e. re-glue it in). Make sure you set it so that the level of the chamois lines up with that on the bellows frame.

[buikligger]

hi Paul and all,

 

Thanks for the answer. It's good to have your support in solving problems. I learn a lot about my instrument.

i checked the blocks: no loose-ones. I closed the EC again, and most of the problem was gone. So my new hypothesis of what happened is that through my pushing and pulling hard the tina must have got air inside and out through the lowest part. I think i'll need new screws to make it more air tight.

 

Happy Christmas to you all. A going to a jam session this evening

 

Dirk De Bleser, Belgium

[Ivan Viehoff]

If these notes are adjacent to each other on the action board, then another reason could be that the levers or pads are interfering with each other, so that when one opens it moves an adjacent key or pad, or is prevented from resealing properly itself. The angle at which you press a key can affect precisely where the pad lands back on the action board when you release it, so that might explain why the effect is more or less intense depending upon which finger you use. You need to ensure the pad will land satisfactorily however you press the key, ie, have sufficient clearance from adjacent pads and levers given the flexibility in the action. There are often areas on a concertina where the pads are crowded on the board, and getting the pad to land so that it reliably covers the hole, given the uncertainties of the landing position inherent in the flexibilities in the action, and nonetheless never interfere with the adjacent keys, is quite tricky. Sometimes a little has to be shaved off the edge of a pad (detach it from the concertina before you try cutting bits off a pad) to give the necessary clearances, which then means the pad has to be very carefully aligned reliably to cover the hole.

 

Key alignment can be adjusted by detaching the pad and reattaching it in the correct place. Alternatively bending the lever a little. Dave Elliott mentions how to make a lever bending tool, but a suitable pair of pliers will do. You must have the key fully depressed before trying to bend the lever, (or you will break the key) so you can't see where you have bent it to until you release it and then put the fretted ends back on, so it can be a lot of tedious trial and error until you get it in the right place.

 

Another reason for inteference between levers can be a spring swinging out of place, that is easily rectified.

[Paul Read]

hi Paul and all,

 

Thanks for the answer. It's good to have your support in solving problems. I learn a lot about my instrument.

i checked the blocks: no loose-ones. I closed the EC again, and most of the problem was gone. So my new hypothesis of what happened is that through my pushing and pulling hard the tina must have got air inside and out through the lowest part. I think i'll need new screws to make it more air tight.

 

Happy Christmas to you all. A going to a jam session this evening

 

Dirk De Bleser, Belgium

I'm wondering if a couple of ends bolts had loosened. If the action board isn't sealed tight to the chamois on the fins you'll get leakage between cells and hence double notes sounding.

[Chris Ghent]

Check for warping in the reed pan and pad board.

 

Chris

[d.elliott]

hi Paul and all,

 

Thanks for the answer. It's good to have your support in solving problems. I learn a lot about my instrument.

i checked the blocks: no loose-ones. I closed the EC again, and most of the problem was gone. So my new hypothesis of what happened is that through my pushing and pulling hard the tina must have got air inside and out through the lowest part. I think i'll need new screws to make it more air tight.

 

Happy Christmas to you all. A going to a jam session this evening

 

Dirk De Bleser, Belgium

I'm wondering if a couple of ends bolts had loosened. If the action board isn't sealed tight to the chamois on the fins you'll get leakage between cells and hence double notes sounding.

 

 

Dirk,

 

I tend to support Pauls' suggestion, however one tip I will give you:

 

DON'T OVER-TIGHTEN OR REPLACE SCREWS!!!! you will get yourself pain without measure if you start stripping or shearing bolts and thread in nuts!

 

So, before you re-fit the action box, rough up all the gasket Chamoise leather in the chamber tops and the bellows frame, (inside face and on the outer edge). Use a nail file, a screw driver tip even your thumbnail. Blow out, or vac out, any resultand dust, and re fit the end in the usual way to the normal bolt tightness.

 

Happy scratching

 

Dave E

[buikligger]

hi Paul and all,

 

Thanks for the answer. It's good to have your support in solving problems. I learn a lot about my instrument.

i checked the blocks: no loose-ones. I closed the EC again, and most of the problem was gone. So my new hypothesis of what happened is that through my pushing and pulling hard the tina must have got air inside and out through the lowest part. I think i'll need new screws to make it more air tight.

 

Happy Christmas to you all. A going to a jam session this evening

 

Dirk De Bleser, Belgium

I'm wondering if a couple of ends bolts had loosened. If the action board isn't sealed tight to the chamois on the fins you'll get leakage between cells and hence double notes sounding.

 

 

Dirk,

 

I tend to support Pauls' suggestion, however one tip I will give you:

 

DON'T OVER-TIGHTEN OR REPLACE SCREWS!!!! you will get yourself pain without measure if you start stripping or shearing bolts and thread in nuts!

 

So, before you re-fit the action box, rough up all the gasket Chamoise leather in the chamber tops and the bellows frame, (inside face and on the outer edge). Use a nail file, a screw driver tip even your thumbnail. Blow out, or vac out, any resultand dust, and re fit the end in the usual way to the normal bolt tightness.

 

Happy scratching

 

Dave E

 

 

Hi Dave, Paul and all,

 

i did scratch and reglue some chamois with the sweat in my hands. When i closed my EC again the problem of double sounding was still there. More on the side on my knee than on the side of the thumb strap (top). When i opened the EC again i saw that the chamois is glued on top of the 4 triangular blocks and not on the other two (at the knee side). Could this be the reason for my problem? Could this cause air leaks inside ? what can i do to solve the problem? Putting some chamois on the other two blocks? Or take away the chamois on the other 4 blocks?

any suggestion is very welcome. Thanks beforehand

 

Dirk

[Greg Jowaisas]

One useful method (which I often forget to use) to check the chamois seals is to lay a 8"X8" pane of glass across the reed chamber chamois while it is in the bellows. Sometimes you can see where the chamois is not sealing properly. You can check the trueness of the sound board (where the pad holes are) with this method. Be aware that the reed pan and sound board can warp slightly to accomodate each other.

 

Occasionally the leakage can be across chambers. A paper shim under the strip of chamois between chambers can make a difference. (Sand the end of the paper strip for a smooth transition). Check with the pane of glass to make sure the shimmed chamois is not too high. You could develope leaks in adjacent places.

 

Make sure the corner blocks are securely glued. Sometimes they are pinned against the bellows or hanging by a thread of a glue joint. They seem secure but when you reassemble the ends they can shift and cause leakage.

 

Shimming the corner blocks can help make a good seal but it is probably better to take the time to reglue the block(s) properly for a longer lasting solution.

 

Some concertina problems can take a bit of tinkering. The trick is to stay patient and work through the problems using sound repair techniques that are largely reversable and will not cause irrevocable harm to the instrument.

 

Dave Elliott's book is a great resource. So is your nearest concertina repair person.

 

Greg

[Bob Tedrow]

Hello,

 

Don't try to remedy this problem by tightening the screws. The screws are there to hold the instrument together, not to make it airtight. The metal screws are probably the most stable part of a concertina. All the other wood and leather parts are more susceptible to the whims and fancys of time temperature and humidity. If it leaks, it is probably not from a loose screw.

 

 

If you play a note and have a second note sounding as well, look to see if the notes are adjacent in the reed pan. They well may be.

 

 

Try this simple remedy first. Find the strip of chamois common to the offending reeds, pull the chamois free of the wooden rib where it resides.

 

Run a small bead of glue onto the rib, white glue will do. Place the chamois back on the rib, but don't try to press it down. Reassemble your concertina, snug the screws.

 

The end of the concertina will now function as your "clamp" and will press the chamois to the correct height automatically.

 

Now be careful and don't be slopping a bunch of glue around to glue the top to the reedpan. If you do I will deny ever making this suggestion.

 

 

Bob

 

 

 

hi Paul and all,

 

Thanks for the answer. It's good to have your support in solving problems. I learn a lot about my instrument.

i checked the blocks: no loose-ones. I closed the EC again, and most of the problem was gone. So my new hypothesis of what happened is that through my pushing and pulling hard the tina must have got air inside and out through the lowest part. I think i'll need new screws to make it more air tight.

 

Happy Christmas to you all. A going to a jam session this evening

 

Dirk De Bleser, Belgium

I'm wondering if a couple of ends bolts had loosened. If the action board isn't sealed tight to the chamois on the fins you'll get leakage between cells and hence double notes sounding.

 

 

Dirk,

 

I tend to support Pauls' suggestion, however one tip I will give you:

 

DON'T OVER-TIGHTEN OR REPLACE SCREWS!!!! you will get yourself pain without measure if you start stripping or shearing bolts and thread in nuts!

 

So, before you re-fit the action box, rough up all the gasket Chamoise leather in the chamber tops and the bellows frame, (inside face and on the outer edge). Use a nail file, a screw driver tip even your thumbnail. Blow out, or vac out, any resultand dust, and re fit the end in the usual way to the normal bolt tightness.

 

Happy scratching

 

Dave E

 

 

Hi Dave, Paul and all,

 

i did scratch and reglue some chamois with the sweat in my hands. When i closed my EC again the problem of double sounding was still there. More on the side on my knee than on the side of the thumb strap (top). When i opened the EC again i saw that the chamois is glued on top of the 4 triangular blocks and not on the other two (at the knee side). Could this be the reason for my problem? Could this cause air leaks inside ? what can i do to solve the problem? Putting some chamois on the other two blocks? Or take away the chamois on the other 4 blocks?

any suggestion is very welcome. Thanks beforehand

 

Dirk

[buikligger]

One useful method (which I often forget to use) to check the chamois seals is to lay a 8"X8" pane of glass across the reed chamber chamois while it is in the bellows. Sometimes you can see where the chamois is not sealing properly. You can check the trueness of the sound board (where the pad holes are) with this method. Be aware that the reed pan and sound board can warp slightly to accomodate each other.

Some concertina problems can take a bit of tinkering. The trick is to stay patient and work through the problems using sound repair techniques that are largely reversable and will not cause irrevocable harm to the instrument.

 

Dave Elliott's book is a great resource. So is your nearest concertina repair person.

 

Greg

 

 

Hi Greg, David and all,

 

i did the check by the glass plate. And indeed saw the left reed pan had warped. So I'll have to fix this. I've been looking through the mails and came across several methods to get the reed pan straight again. From using the morning dew to steaming. What methods have you been using so far? And with what results?

thanks for the help

 

Dirk