Significant Weight Reduction?

[richard]

Hello

 

Would the weight reduction be noticeable in changing an Anglo from and 8 fold (S. African) bellow to a 6 fold bellow? Or would that be insignificant?

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks,

 

Richard

Edited August 11, 2007 by richard

[Dana Johnson]

Hello

 

Would the weight reduction be noticeable in changing an Anglo from and 8 fold (S. African) bellow to a 6 fold bellow? Or would that be insignificant?

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks,

 

Richard

You might save a half to one ounce on a six inch across the flats size concertina depending on materials and construction. No point at all in doing it for the weight. If you weren't a big air user AND needed to replace the bellows anyway, six or seven folds gives better control on changing note directions, at a reduction in total volume. More a style issue than anything else.

Dana

[richard]

Thanks, Dana for your opinion. Do you think the "control on changing note directions" would be noticeable, or would it be more theoretical?

 

At present I feel the instrument can change directions Pretty well. I don't sense any difference compared to 6 fold bellows that I play or have tried....

 

That said I wonder if it is worthwhile to put on an 6 fold bellow, or would it just be a folly or pointless exercise that wouldn't make any perceiveable difference?

 

But perhaps to someone with more skill than I have at present the difference(improvement) would be more clear?

 

 

Would anyone be interested in an almost "like new" 8 fold bellows?

 

 

Richard

[ben]

Hello Richard,

 

Two questions: Is your concertina six sided (hexagonal) or eight sided (octagonal/Aeola)? What would be your asking price?

 

(By the way, I have two eight sided, eight bellows- South African Anglo concertinas, one Tedrow Aeola with eight bellows. By next April I will have a ten sided, ten bellows South African Anglo. It is great for Boer Music. If I was playing Irish(Celtic) or Morris style then six or seven fold bellows would suffice for me.)

[Dana Johnson]

Thanks, Dana for your opinion. Do you think the "control on changing note directions" would be noticeable, or would it be more theoretical?

 

At present I feel the instrument can change directions Pretty well. I don't sense any difference compared to 6 fold bellows that I play or have tried....

 

That said I wonder if it is worthwhile to put on an 6 fold bellow, or would it just be a folly or pointless exercise that wouldn't make any perceiveable difference?

 

But perhaps to someone with more skill than I have at present the difference(improvement) would be more clear?

 

 

Would anyone be interested in an almost "like new" 8 fold bellows?

 

 

Richard

If you play fast music with the bellows fairly closed ( best response range ) you won't notice much difference between 6 and 8 unless the bellows is a very flexible older one. When you open the bellows up, the difference becomes more pronounced both because of side flex that doesn't change the air pressure and because the extra folds provide just that much more give to the bellows body ( think of it as a hardish funny shaped balloon. ) that flexes the bellows walls as it pressurizes the air, taking away some of the energy from the transition and spreading it over a longer time period. These things may not be noticeable to a player that doesn't play a lot of quick triplets etc. And slowness can be overcome to some degree by increasing the playing force unconsciously.

 

If you are playing in the mostly closed range, you aren't taking advantage of the folds regardless, and if you have the bellows more extended, you need to develop a playing style that helps stabilize the bellows. Even on a six fold bellows, you can't ignore controlling the tendency of the bellows to flex and wiggle with direction changes. This can cause much more trouble than the fold number, which only amplifies the effect somewhat.

 

I haven't done this myself, ( though I have made a lot of bellows ) but I don't see right away why if you want to change from 8 to 6 or 7 folds, you can't simply have the excess folds removed and the bellows reattached at that end. (or both ends to match the end leather ) reattaching the bellows would have to be done anyway to put on a new bellows. This would keep the original bellows and save a fair amount on the price by not having to make an entire new bellows.

 

I wouldn't bother with doing any of this until I actually felt the instrument was slowing me down or making it difficult to play cleanly though. I feel like the number of folds is worth considering when you are ordering an instrument, for the kind of music you like to play, but too many people want bigger bellows simply because they haven't yet learned to control their air, and another year or less practice will solve that problem.

[Robin Madge]

As I'm habitually playing my 36 button Lachenal Baritone Anglo as a first choice nowadays, I'm starting to think that the answer is not so much finding a lighter instrument as just getting fitter

 

Didn't Kathryn Tickel advocate weight training as a prerequisite to better control of the Northumbrian pipes?

 

Robin Madge

[richard]

"I haven't done this myself, ( though I have made a lot of bellows ) but I don't see right away why if you want to change from 8 to 6 or 7 folds, you can't simply have the excess folds removed and the bellows reattached at that end. (or both ends to match the end leather ) reattaching the bellows would have to be done anyway to put on a new bellows. This would keep the original bellows and save a fair amount on the price by not having to make an entire new bellows."

 

Dana

 

Do you think this approach would be generally a practical way to accomplish the goal. It seems logical. Do most bellows once "trimmed" have what is left to fit back onto the frame, or is the end of the bellows so different from the folds section that the a section of the folds can't be fitted back on the the frame in a proper way (that matches the other end)?

 

Thanks,

 

Richard

[Dana Johnson]

Do you think this approach would be generally a practical way to accomplish the goal. It seems logical. Do most bellows once "trimmed" have what is left to fit back onto the frame, or is the end of the bellows so different from the folds section that the a section of the folds can't be fitted back on the the frame in a proper way (that matches the other end)?

 

Thanks,

 

Richard

The different parts of a bellows are generally all the same from fold to fold. Sometimes the end fold cards are trimmed slightly smaller to fit into a rabbet in the bellows frame but this is not always the case. There shouldn't be anything different her from the normal process of replacing a bellows except that the bellows is already made. Generally the end leather is replaced and the bellows frames cleaned for a smooth gluing of the new leather when a replacement bellows is made and you'd have to do that on both ends to have it match. It may be possible to unglue the old leather from the bellows (depending on what glue was used, and re glue it once the bellows is reattached in the shortened form if you really wanted to keep all the old stuff, but no guarantees here. The best thing is to talk to the people who would do the work and see what they have to say. As I said, I don't do replacement bellows (except for myself) but If I did, I doubt if I'd hesitate to tackle the shortening. Still there may be something I am missing that someone who replaces old bellows on a regular basis would be familiar with. Just don't start the project yourself. It takes practice o do a good job.

Dana

[m3838]

Bandoneons have long bellows. It doesn't mean a player should stretch them to limits.

I thought it's good technique to play with bellows generally staying in the middle or less of stretch limit. That's what the air button is for.

LIvenskaya Garmoshka (semi-chromatic folk accordion) has bellows that span 2 yards.

Sometimes they perform, stretching the bellows and wrapping them around the body etc. Good for tourists and for a chuckle. But masters play it compressed.

I'd say the issue is not having enough air, regardless of air button technique.

 

http://www.art.oryol.ru/livenka.htm

[JimLucas]

At present I feel the instrument can change directions Pretty well. I don't sense any difference compared to 6 fold bellows that I play or have tried....

 

That said I wonder if it is worthwhile to put on an 6 fold bellow, or would it just be a folly or pointless exercise that wouldn't make any perceiveable difference?

In spite of the advice that you're getting on how to do surgery on a bellows, I think the correct answer is that it would indeed be "a folly or pointless exercise"... at least for you at this point in time.

 

But perhaps to someone with more skill than I have at present the difference(improvement) would be more clear?

Even if that were the case, I don't see how doing the surgery would benefit you. I could see doing the modification if control becomes an issue in the future, but not until then.

 

However, your initial question was about weight. If you feel your concertina is too heavy, any modification to the instrument itself is unlikely to make a significant difference. I'm sure you would be better off replacing your present concertina with one of equal quality but lighter weight. Weight training has also been suggested as a solution, and that shouldn't be taken as a joke. It can make a real difference.

[Dana Johnson]

I think the correct answer is that it would indeed be "a folly or pointless exercise"... at least for you at this point in time.

Jim really is right here. As much as can be done to change things, there isn't a good reason to do it. Perhaps I was misguided in even mentioning what can be done. Still, it isn't my choice to make.

Dana