Poll: Specialty Concertina Purchasing

[Hooves]

Call it curiosity wrapped up in market research. A few Speciality concertina questions.

[JimLucas]

Call it curiosity wrapped up in market research. A few Speciality concertina questions.

I haven't yet voted, in part because some of my responses would be "none of the above".

[stuart estell]

I'd like to know who voted for "I have novelty keys but wish I didn't" Tell us more...

[d.elliott]

What about those who play English System, do we vote or not?

 

Dave

[Hooves]

Call it curiosity wrapped up in market research. A few Speciality concertina questions.

I haven't yet voted, in part because some of my responses would be "none of the above".

 

 

Thanks for your response, yes, I should have palnned the answers/questions better, its the first poll I have ever run, but so far the results are very interesting.

 

Thanks to all who have taken the time to vote and I apologize for not providing more options, I didn't want to bogg people down with long lists.

 

I will keep it open till the end of the month, if you ahve your own ideas for apoll you should crete one, its fun!

[Hooves]

What about those who play English System, do we vote or not?

 

Dave

 

 

I intentionally left off standard concertinas as I am only interested in what I call "Speciality Concertinas", that is concertinas that are somewhat unusaual: Minis, Duets, and Novelty keys in my mind equate to "specialty" as they are not run of the mill additions or features.

 

Another poll might focus on the standard concertinas such as Anglos and English, if you ahve your own ideas for a poll you should run one.

 

BTW, I have your book its very useful, I am re-valving my MaCaan duet in the next month.

[David Barnert]

So are you, an "unknown maker," planning something?

 

Edited for typos

Edited June 19, 2007 by David Barnert

[michael stutesman]

What about those who play English System, do we vote or not?

 

Dave

 

 

I intentionally left off standard concertinas as I am only interested in what I call "Speciality Concertinas", that is concertinas that are somewhat unusaual: Minis, Duets, and Novelty keys in my mind equate to "specialty" as they are not run of the mill additions or features.

 

Aother poll might focus on the standard concertinas such as Anglos and English, if you ahve your own ideas for a poll you should run one.

 

BTW, I have your book its very useful, I am re-valving my MaCaan duet in the next month.

 

 

What type glue will you be using?

[JimLucas]

Call it curiosity wrapped up in market research. A few Speciality concertina questions.

Well, Hooves, I think this poll tells me more about your own attitudes than it's likely to to me about the attitudes of others. How so? Among other things, because you tie together qualities which aren't inherently connected. E.g.,

1. If you could buy a 55 Key Crane Duet for less than $800 would you?
   I think that tying the type of instrument to a specific price is an irrelevant or misleading restriction. Some folks would be willing to pay much more than $800 for a 55-button Crane duet in good condition. I believe that more than one C.net member has done so. Others may have no desire at all for a Crane duet, even one of top quality and condition, at any price.
   
2. If you could buy a Mini-Anglo for less than $500 would you?
   This is similar to the above, but suffers from the further problem that it's not clear (to me, and so I suspect to others) what you mean by "Mini-Anglo". Is that a full-range but smaller-size instrument (e.g., like the Dipper County Clare model) or a "miniature" with very few buttons and limited range?
   
3. Do you have and use "Novelty" keys on your concertina while performing?
   By tying together "have" and "use", you've made it impossible to distinguish between a "no" which means "have them but don't use them" and a "no" which means "don't use them because don't have them". And while you've allowed a response of "I have them but I wish I didn't," you haven't allowed the equally possible response, "I don't have them, but wish I did."
   
4. Would you try a new Duet system if the model was less than $600?
   As with the above examples of the Crane and anglo, your seemingly arbitrary price constraint makes it impossible to tell whether that price was a significant factor in the response or whether the answer was based entirely on interest or lack of interest in trying a new system. Furthermore, for some the answer would depend on the details of the new system. E.g., I personally would be much more interested in a Wheatstone "double" or a Linton (not really a duet, but usually classed as one) than some arbitrary (as yet unspecified) systemor even a Hayden. And for me the ranges of the two hands would also matter.
   
5. Whats the most you would pay for a concertina built by an unknown Maker?
   You've omitted what to me is the only reasonable response: The maker's identity is irrelevant; the only factors that matter to me are the kind, quality, and condition of the instrument.
   

Finally, I think the price boundaries you've included in your questions are all unrealistically low. I doubt that it's possible to produce acceptable-quality instruments of those first three types at those prices without a production run of at least 1000 identical instruments, and even 10,000 might not be enough. (Then there would be the issue of how many one could actually sell, even at those prices.) I think the numerous C.net discussions of currently available anglos, Englishes, and duets make that pretty clear.

 

Here are my own answers to the questions you ask in this poll:

• If you could buy a 55 Key Crane Duet for less than $800 would you?
  Of good quality, condition, and size... yes! Actually, I already have a 55-button Lachenal New Model, and I intend to have it restored as soon as I can afford the work, which I fully expect to cost more than $800..
  
• If you could buy a Mini-Anglo for less than $500 would you?
  Probably not, regardless of whether you mean a small 30-button or a 6-button "miniature". As I've noted, I don't think it's possible to produce an acceptable instrument of either sort at that price. But if I find I'm wrong about that -- or if I find an "impossible" bargain at a flea market, -- I'd gladly pay that much and more for either.
  
• Do you have and use "Novelty" keys on your concertina while performing?
  I have had concertinas that included novelty keys, though they were instruments(anglo and Maccann) that I never used in performance. (In performance I rarely play anything but English. In addition these instruments were all in need of overhauls.) But I did experiment with the keys, and on a good performance instrument I'm sure I would use them, albeit only rarely.
  
• Would you try a new Duet system if the model was less than $600?
  Again, I don't expect to find one at that price that's worth playing. But if I did, then the answer would probably be yes, depending on what the system was. In fact, I would pay more. In fact, I have.
  
• Whats the most you would pay for a concertina built by an unknown Maker?
  Even your $2400 option is too low. If I felt the instrument were sufficiently sturdy and playable, the only limit would be my ability to pay. A friend of mine has a beautiful 70-button Crane with no maker's identification nor serial no. to be found anywhere on or in the instrument. Chris Algar thought it was a Wheatstone, but there's no instrument matching its description in the Wheatstone ledgers. Maker unknown, but completely worth the price of a Wheatstone or Crabb!
  

Now as soon as I post this, I'll look at the responses others have made to your poll. I'm curious, even though I don't expect to be able to draw any conclusions from the results.

[JimLucas]

Thanks to all who have taken the time to vote and I apologize for not providing more options, I didn't want to bogg people down with long lists.

I understand both your desires and your enthusiasm, but if you want to obtain useful information, it's important to plan your questions carefully and to consider the possible responses even more carefully.

 

In fact, I find the Poll facility in the Forum to be seriously inadequate for true research (market or otherwise), so I've given up trying to use it for that. E.g., it's impossible to use it to determine correlations among answers to different questions.

 

What about those who play English System, do we vote or not?

I intentionally left off standard concertinas as I am only interested in what I call "Speciality Concertinas", that is concertinas that are somewhat unusual: Minis, Duets, and Novelty keys in my mind equate to "specialty" as they are not run of the mill additions or features.

Interesting that you classify duets as "specialty".

Though not nearly as common as either anglo or English, historically at least the Maccann and Crane were produced in quantity in standard models, and now the Hayden seems to have achieved the same distinction, and the Edgley 24-button anglo (not a duet, I admit) seems headed in the same direction.

 

So are you, an "unknown maker," planning something?

If that is your intent, Hooves, I wish you luck. There's definitely room in this world for more good concertina makers.

[Hooves]

Thanks to all who have taken the time to vote and I apologize for not providing more options, I didn't want to bogg people down with long lists.

I understand both your desires and your enthusiasm, but if you want to obtain useful information, it's important to plan your questions carefully and to consider the possible responses even more carefully.

 

In fact, I find the Poll facility in the Forum to be seriously inadequate for true research (market or otherwise), so I've given up trying to use it for that. E.g., it's impossible to use it to determine correlations among answers to different questions.

 

What about those who play English System, do we vote or not?

I intentionally left off standard concertinas as I am only interested in what I call "Speciality Concertinas", that is concertinas that are somewhat unusual: Minis, Duets, and Novelty keys in my mind equate to "specialty" as they are not run of the mill additions or features.

Interesting that you classify duets as "specialty".

Though not nearly as common as either anglo or English, historically at least the Maccann and Crane were produced in quantity in standard models, and now the Hayden seems to have achieved the same distinction, and the Edgley 24-button anglo (not a duet, I admit) seems headed in the same direction.

 

So are you, an "unknown maker," planning something?

If that is your intent, Hooves, I wish you luck. There's definitely room in this world for more good concertina makers.

 

I appreciate your comments,.

 

I added extra questions that made the poll too broad: orginally I was only goign to ask about entry level Crane duets( or any duet systems), I have seen at least on eBay (not the best for gathering real prices) crane duets go for less than $800 un-restored. Restored is a differnt case.

 

However, if a company in China can be contracted to build English system duets, and standard anglos, the same company could likely produce duets, or even a mini-anglo. The popularity of the Stagi Mini-english I think indicates that a large enough proportion of concertina players would like to have a Mini, but only if its soemthign they can afford to try out without spending as much for a full size instrument.

 

If I was buying from a pro maker, I would buy a full range instrument. But if I was buying something to goof around with I might consider a mini if it wasn't as big an investment and it wasn't a total piece of junk.

 

Yes, I intentionally set the prices much lower than a pro builder would charge. I did this because I feel that if there were more duet systems in the low price range, more people would play them. As it stands, if you go to a shop chances are you will be buying either a Anglo or an English, you will not have much choice unless the shop sells vintage instruments.

 

I'm not convinced that a mid range instrument needs to be over $800, its all in profit margins. For example, I see chinese 20 button anglos for less than $100. Plastic, paper, accordion waxed reeds, aluminum action, all the things a pro concertina completely avoid. Those materials do not have to be used if you have a lower profit margin, but you can't get somethign for nothing, there must be a compromise, this is why I listed the Mini-anglo price as 5x that of the lowest quality new anglo on the market.

 

A pro hand made instruement with all the artistry and finer materials should command a higher price, I'm more interested in what can be made to entice more people into the concertina arena, which usually starts at the low end.

 

I made the poll rather quickly, but it was never meant to be misleading. Rather, I was more interested in peoples reaction to low-mid priced concertinas which weren't the 2 big dominating types, english and anglo.

 

Although duets were mass produced, as far as I can tell there is no company mass producing them anymore, however certainly anglos and english are being cranked out as I see them for sale frequently, but only rarely have I seen the Stagi Hayden listed for sale (and no other systems, have you ever seen listed a "New" Crane Duet? )

 

The Mini-anglo question was a bit weak, I agree: I should have stated a more reasonable criteria for judgment (in all questions). In fact, I think the term "mini" needs proper definition or else you really can't answer it. Some would argue anything less than the standard 6.25" box is a "mini", which would make the Tedrow Zephyr a mini with a full 30 buttons.

 

I was thinking more on the lines of the stagi 18b, which is about 4" across the flats, and without a full range or at most 20 buttons.

 

-----------------

 

CNC - Computer Numerical Control. Yep, I got myself a CNC machine, and its a beuty of a beast. I wondered how Lachenal, even in the 1800's could actually mass produce concertinas, and they had similiar machines, I believe its called a spirral cutting machine, and can use a template to produce duplicates.

 

Ah the CNC machine..., computer controlled routing, drilling and cutting. A CNC machine can cut out most of the parts needed. of course you still need reeds and the ability to tune it, plus somebody has to put it all together. You can even have it route the chambers.

 

Point is, a single person with 1 CNC machine can go into production (imagine if you had 10!). Labor costs are low, because the machine pays for itself. Nobody builds just "one -offs", that is not a good way to manufacture, you build in bulk, while one piece is drying, your workign on something else, all the while the CNC machine in the garage is cranking out finely carved fretwork.

 

Call me an enthuiast, so sad that the victorian zeal has languished.

 

IF (and its a big IF) I did go into concetrtina building, I would not bother with standard boxes, why would anybody? There are enough pro builders, and enough entry level instruments to satisfy that market. I'm only interested in Duets and Minis, and to some extent unusal instruments (thats for concertinas, in the realm of luthiery I'm only interested in Mandolins, Bouzoukis, and Citterns).

 

Why? I just am! I find the oddities more fun, I respect the builders and the restorers, but in a crowded world you need to set your own goals and search for those niches not being filled.

[ragtimer]

Although duets were mass produced, as far as I can tell there is no company mass producing them anymore, however certainly anglos and english are being cranked out as I see them for sale frequently, but only rarely have I seen the Stagi Hayden listed for sale (and no other systems, have you ever seen listed a "New" Crane Duet? )

Absolutely right

I've been sort of half-heartedly looking for a 48 or more key Crane, but if I could get one new for $800 I would go for it, on the chance that I could learn and enjoy that system.

 

And if I could get a Hayden for $800, I'd grab it just to have a backup for when my Stagi 4k wears out. A new Stagi Hayden is now about $900, so I'd pay that for an alternate if I thought it was as good.

 

BTW, I coudn't quite get your survey question about buying a "new duet system." Did you mean a new (not vintage) tina, or did you mean any Duet system that you haven't tried yet? E.g., for me a Hayden is not a "new duet system" since I play it already.

The Mini-anglo question was a bit weak, I agree: I should have stated a more reasonable criteria for judgment (in all questions). In fact, I think the term "mini" needs proper definition or else you really can't answer it. Some would argue anything less than the standard 6.25" box is a "mini", which would make the Tedrow Zephyr a mini with a full 30 buttons.

Yeah, I thought you meant maybe a 10-button (5 per side) mini like the one I saw at NESI 2004. It was a lovely box, had terrific loud tone, but could only play in diatonic C -- just a novelty item.

 

I wouldn't buy any Anglo with fewer than 30 keys.

IF (and its a big IF) I did go into concetrtina building, I would not bother with standard boxes, why would anybody? There are enough pro builders, and enough entry level instruments to satisfy that market. I'm only interested in Duets and Minis, and to some extent unusal instruments (thats for concertinas, in the realm of luthiery I'm only interested in Mandolins, Bouzoukis, and Citterns).

Very good reasoning. I do hope you or someone jumps into the niche gap for Duets!

Why? I just am! I find the oddities more fun, I respect the builders and the restorers, but in a crowded world you need to set your own goals and search for those niches not being filled.

Right on! Oddities forever! In my piano playing days, I concentrated on Elizabethan virginal music and ragtime -- not the Chopin and Mozart that everyone played to death. I liked it better, too.

[stuart estell]

Yeah, I thought you meant maybe a 10-button (5 per side) mini like the one I saw at NESI 2004. It was a lovely box, had terrific loud tone, but could only play in diatonic C -- just a novelty item.

 

That's not fair, surely? It might not be of any use for whatever your normal style of playing might be, but you can do an awful lot with a completely diatonic one-key instrument. I'd never think of a one-row melodeon as a "novelty item" (an instrument of torture maybe ) *

[Hooves]

BTW, I coudn't quite get your survey question about buying a "new duet system." Did you mean a new (not vintage) tina, or did you mean any Duet system that you haven't tried yet? E.g., for me a Hayden is not a "new duet system" since I play it already.

 

What I meant was a newely developed key arrangement ( I have some initial ideas). I was trying to probe peoples' minds to find out how open they might be to a system as yet undescribed.

 

I am currently learing and enjoying the MacCaan system, and I am hoping to give the Crane system a go in the near future. The Crane system looks to me to be a lot more logical and it has 5 rows as oppsoed to the six on a MacCaan, I belive that would be easier to finger, but I need to check it out before making any real solid statements.

 

I got some feedback that the Crane system would work better for chromatic passages, but I need to furhther investage it. Mr. Hayden has put together a book consisting of excercises for all systems, I will be reading his work as soon as I have time, as I believe I can gleam some insight from his work and understand the Hayden system he came up much better.

 

Thanks for your comments!

[JimLucas]

Yeah, I thought you meant maybe a 10-button (5 per side) mini like the one I saw at NESI 2004. It was a lovely box, had terrific loud tone, but could only play in diatonic C -- just a novelty item.

That's not fair, surely? It might not be of any use for whatever your normal style of playing might be, but you can do an awful lot with a completely diatonic one-key instrument. I'd never think of a one-row melodeon as a "novelty item"...

Or Scottish pipes? They have 9 notes (not counting the drones), don't they? That's 11 notes fewer than a 10-button anglo! Nor can they -- aside from the drones -- play harmony with themselves. But they have a large "classical" repertoire, and I suspect that today there are as many players of the Scottish pipes as of English, anglo, and duet concertinas combined. Maybe more.

 

Maybe also a "novelty item" for ragtimer, though. And there are plenty of folks who think that all concertinas are "novelty items".

[JimLucas]

BTW, I coudn't quite get your survey question about buying a "new duet system." Did you mean a new (not vintage) tina, or did you mean any Duet system that you haven't tried yet? E.g., for me a Hayden is not a "new duet system" since I play it already.

What I meant was a newely developed key arrangement ( I have some initial ideas). I was trying to probe peoples' minds to find out how open they might be to a system as yet undescribed.

To get some idea, trying Searching for previous discussions of designs proposed here on C.net. There have been a few, from the relatively minor departure of Dave Weinstein's D/G (as opposed to G/D) anglo to m3838's "20-button chromatic anglo" and Wheatstone's unsuccessful "double" to some more radical designs whose authors' names I can't recall at the moment.

 

I know that while I'm receptive to the idea of new keyboard designs (I've come up with a few myself, but nothing new yet that I would propose to a broad public), I would want to "try before I buy". "New" by itself isn't enough. It would have to flow well under my fingers.

 

I am currently learing and enjoying the MacCaan system, and I am hoping to give the Crane system a go in the near future. The Crane system looks to me to be a lot more logical and it has 5 rows as oppsoed to the six on a MacCaan, I belive that would be easier to finger, but I need to check it out before making any real solid statements.

My personal experience is that "easier to finger" depends very much on the types of music and arrangements I'm trying to "finger". Which reminds me once again that I should find time to try some of David Cornell's arrangements (for the Maccann) on the Crane.

[chainyanker]

over 1/3 said,"I wouldn't even consider it." it seems that a snowball has more of a chance than someone getting to try a new builders insturment. the only reasons this hitts me sour is what if no one tried a dipper. there just maybe a craftman thats got a talent in building and just needs a chance. in the mean time ill just keep enjoying this one i have that was built by a no one who is know.

[ragtimer]

I know that while I'm receptive to the idea of new keyboard designs (I've come up with a few myself, but nothing new yet that I would propose to a broad public), I would want to "try before I buy". "New" by itself isn't enough. It would have to flow well under my fingers.

 

Understood. I like the way most (!) tunes flow on my Hayden's buttons. But there are a couple of issues here:

 

1. Do you want a key layout that you can play well on right off, without having to practice? Most musicians would say that is cheating

 

2. My guess is that for any Duet fingering system, there are certain perfectly reasonable melodic intervals on the R.H., and useful chords on the L.H., that will be difficult on that system. The Hayden R.H. gets tied up with successive fourth or fifth intervals, and its L.H. can't really play a proper Minor 7th chord. And you can't play a fully legator ascending melodic minor scale, with its 5 buttons in a row.

 

So even the great (IMHO) Hayden System has its limits.

 

I am currently learing and enjoying the MacCaan system, and I am hoping to give the Crane system a go in the near future. The Crane system looks to me to be a lot more logical and it has 5 rows as oppsoed to the six on a MacCaan, I belive that would be easier to finger, but I need to check it out before making any real solid statements.

My personal experience is that "easier to finger" depends very much on the types of music and arrangements I'm trying to "finger". Which reminds me once again that I should find time to try some of David Cornell's arrangements (for the Maccann) on the Crane.

I too consider Crane to be more logical than the Maccann, but that's without ever trying to play either., just looking at charts. The real question is: What amount of practice does it take to get X amount of proficiency?

The Hayden is easy to learn simple tunes and chords on quickly, but when you get to minor keys and exotice chords, it's time to practice, practice, practice.

 

You're right; different types of music present their own difficulties for any given system.

 

I've tried David Cornell's arrangements on the Hayden, and it isn't easy! They are written with the Maccann layout in mind, I suspect, and his big Maccann has more rangge on both sides than most Haydens.

 

(Edited to try to make the blasted quotes work)

Edited June 24, 2007 by ragtimer