Tunes That "lay Out" Well

[Larry Ayers]

I've been playing Anglo (a Morse Ceili) for a couple of years now, and I've noticed that some tunes which are easy on the fiddle (I'm mainly a fiddler) are awkward on the concertina. Contrariwise, there are other tunes which just roll right out of an Anglo concertina but aren't as easy on the fiddle.

 

Here are a few tunes I play which seem to lay out well on the C/G Anglo:

 

The Heather Breeze

Hartigan's Fancy (or Humors of Ennistymon)

The Handsome Ploughboy (in G)

Sailor's Hornpipe (or College Hornpipe, in G as well)

Banish Misfortune

Temperance Reel

Doctor O'Neill

 

What tunes do you all find to be easier on the C/G concertina?

[Larryo]

Hi Larry,

 

Another Larry here ! Having played fiddle before the concertina, I was shocked to find that tunes that would be considered starter tunes on the fiddle were difficult(for me) on the concertina. The sequence of notes back and forth between D and F# were a challenge and so Gerrry's Beaver Hat, Humours of Glendart and the like caused me no end of grief, primarily because my small finger although used on the fiddle was not used in the same way and it took a good while for the left hand side of things to show any sign of improvement! I think it was more the shock of finding out how difficult tunes which I would have considered straight forward on the fiddle,were on the concertina.And yet I figured that if I went with the G tunes, I would never master the tunes in D because there are no shortage of lovely tunes in G and tunes in D might never be tackled.So although tunes in G do seem to flow nicer I am still sticking with practicing lots of D tunes.

[Dieppe]

Hi Larry,

 

Another Larry here ! Having played fiddle before the concertina, I was shocked to find that tunes that would be considered starter tunes on the fiddle were difficult(for me) on the concertina.

 

I've found that some tunes on the EC can be a little trickier than others. My more difficult one is the "Indiana Jones Theme Song"... Just some series of notes has my fingers just not hitting the right keys. And on a similar vein the Pirates "Yo Ho, Yo Ho, A Pirate's Life for Me" (Disney, yeah I know) song has a sequence that's particularly easy on the EC. Dunno why.

 

Yeah... I've far too many songs stuck in me wanting to get out. But sometimes when I play for friends I find they like hearing tunes they recognize, so I have built up a small group of songs that just sound nice and aren't too difficult. I find "The Force Theme" fun to slip in if I'm just noodling around.

 

Yeah yeah, I do have other songs I'm learning... but it's nice to have a few I play without too many messups!

[stevejay]

I've been playing Anglo (a Morse Ceili) for a couple of years now, and I've noticed that some tunes which are easy on the fiddle (I'm mainly a fiddler) are awkward on the concertina. Contrariwise, there are other tunes which just roll right out of an Anglo concertina but aren't as easy on the fiddle.

 

Here are a few tunes I play which seem to lay out well on the C/G Anglo:

 

The Heather Breeze

Hartigan's Fancy (or Humors of Ennistymon)

The Handsome Ploughboy (in G)

Sailor's Hornpipe (or College Hornpipe, in G as well)

Banish Misfortune

Temperance Reel

Doctor O'Neill

 

What tunes do you all find to be easier on the C/G concertina?

 

 

Sometimes I will change the key.. 9 Points of Roguery plays easier than the D.. you just have to experiment. Old man Dillon is a great Concertina tune if you don't know that one. There are more that work easily than are extremely awkward thankfully

[stevejay]

I've been playing Anglo (a Morse Ceili) for a couple of years now, and I've noticed that some tunes which are easy on the fiddle (I'm mainly a fiddler) are awkward on the concertina. Contrariwise, there are other tunes which just roll right out of an Anglo concertina but aren't as easy on the fiddle.

 

Here are a few tunes I play which seem to lay out well on the C/G Anglo:

 

The Heather Breeze

Hartigan's Fancy (or Humors of Ennistymon)

The Handsome Ploughboy (in G)

Sailor's Hornpipe (or College Hornpipe, in G as well)

Banish Misfortune

Temperance Reel

Doctor O'Neill

 

What tunes do you all find to be easier on the C/G concertina?

 

 

Sometimes I will change the key.. 9 Points of Roguery plays easier in G than the D.. you just have to experiment. Old man Dillon is a great Concertina tune if you don't know that one. There are more that work easily than are extremely awkward due to their diatonic structure

[ragtimer]

I've been playing Anglo (a Morse Ceili) for a couple of years now, and I've noticed that some tunes which are easy on the fiddle (I'm mainly a fiddler) are awkward on the concertina. Contrariwise, there are other tunes which just roll right out of an Anglo concertina but aren't as easy on the fiddle.

I think every concertina system has certain note sequences that are just plain nasty.

 

On the Hayden Duet, consectutive leaps of 4ths or 5ths can be fingered only one or two ways, and you ahve to fudge the fingerings of preceding notes to make those fingers available.

 

I do paly a lot of fiddle tunes, and one thing that's easy on the bow and ruff on the Hayden fingers is where you play a sequence (scale) of 16th ntoes on one string while bowing another string open in between each of the other notes.

 

On the Duet, as your fingers walk thru the scale of notes, you have to use different finers on each return to that constant note in between. SOme of these passages are jsut about impossible -- and if you "re-write" the tune to "fix" it, it's immediately obvious to even a first-time listener.

 

I suspect guitarists who attempt banjo pieces find the same problems now and then.

 

Since the EC was intended to read violin parts, I wonder if its fingering ssytem is more robust?

[spindizzy]

Since the EC was intended to read violin parts, I wonder if its fingering ssytem is more robust?

 

5th jumps and repeated notes are what I find tricky on Ec, so that common bit in fiddle tunes where you bounce off an open A string between a sequence of other notes can mean doing a few work arounds.

 

And the trumpet hornpipe (Pugwash) is a pain - and for some reason is the one that the well oiled punter always yells at you to play!

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

Since the EC was intended to read violin parts, I wonder if its fingering ssytem is more robust?

Lies! All lies!

 

Wheatstone's fingering system, which forms the basis for the EC, was not "intended" to read violin parts. The fact that in its developed (48-button English concertina) form it's uncommonly well suited to playing violin music is a welcome side effect, but that effect is not the cause behind its design. The EC is also superbly suited to playing music written for just about any wind instrument, and even some guitar pieces. It's also great for playing some kinds of harmonies and arrangements that none of the above can do as solo instruments.

 

5th jumps and repeated notes are what I find tricky on Ec, so that common bit in fiddle tunes where you bounce off an open A string between a sequence of other notes can mean doing a few work arounds.

And Chris has just named two things that are dead easy on the fiddle/violin, but which many (though not all) EC players find difficult or impossible. Another is the combination of the two... playing one note repeatedly and simultaneously with playing a sequence of other notes, a common technique in many fiddle traditions.

 

But it simply makes sense that on two instruments which aren't identical, there should be some differences between what's easy and difficult on each.

 

I think every concertina system has certain note sequences that are just plain nasty.

Of course, though if you're speaking of playing melodies, I would say that the English has the fewest of such problems among the different kinds of concertina. It's also great for playing chords.

 

So why doesn't everybody play the English and abandon the others? Well, aside from the schizomanic layout of the keyboard, the English is not well suited to playing chords and melody simultaneously in the fashion so many folks use on the duets and the anglo. And in general, when playing sequences of two or more notes at a time, for each instrument there will be individual sequences which are easy on that instrument and difficult on each of the others.

[Hooves]

I suspect guitarists who attempt banjo pieces find the same problems now and then.

 

Since the EC was intended to read violin parts, I wonder if its fingering ssytem is more robust?

 

 

Yes but we have the extreme advantage that we can re-tune our guitars to make them match better for different songs. banjos are tuned in so many different ways I can't imagine there is a tuning not tried on banjo.

 

I also play octave mandolin and I use some tunings that are also used in banjo playing. For concertina, short of buying a new one or getting a reed or two re-tuned, thats what you got. It does not surprise me evena little that some songs work better on fiddle than on concertina (any type of box).

 

also, I suspect many tunes being played were wrtitten on concertina, and so take advantage of the simpler fingerings.

 

I'm focusing these days on the MacCaan duet (with all of 46 keys and no air button), I have found a few tunes that even an amateur like me can sound out and they fall very naturally on the keyboard.

[Larry Stout]

I've found two tunes which fall much better under my fingers on EC than on fiddle. "Joys of Wedlock" has a lot of nasty string crossings on a fiddle, but it is quite well suited to English concertina. The version of "Bigg Market Lasses" I play (in A Dorian, not Em as in the session version) is very chromatic in ways that make the string crossings on fiddle difficult. I also find tunes which use the whole range, like Scott Skinner's "The Mathematician", easier on EC than they would be for me on fiddle, where one has to use fifth (or perhaps even seventh) position-- not part of my fiddle bag of tricks! That tune maxes out on the high B on the left hand of a 48 button EC.

 

Just out of curiosity--- are there any tunes anyone still plays that use the extended notes on an extended treble?

[JimLucas]

Just out of curiosity--- are there any tunes anyone still plays that use the extended notes on an extended treble?

There's more to life -- and more to a concertina, fiddle, guitar, piano, etc. -- than just "tunes". Violinists and guitarists may play well up the neck, or pianists close to either end of their keyboard, but not because a "tune" extends that far. Those are effects used in accompaniments, arrangements, and "pieces".

 

How many "tunes" are there with a range of more than two octaves? On an extended treble English, one could play a 2-octave tune with G as its lowest note in three different octaves, or the entirety of any 2-octave tune in any key in two different octaves. Have you tried that?

 

There's nothing inherently wrong or untraditional about playing in a different octave. The tin whistle sounds an octave higher than the fiddle or flute, while the tenor banjo sounds an octave lower. Flute players will often play tunes -- or parts of them -- an octave higher than usual, for variety or effect or just to be heard better. Fiddlers will often play all or part of a tune an octave lower than usual on some repetitions. Concertinas should be able to do both, so why not try it?

 

I admit that I only rarely go to even to the highest notes of my non-extended treble when playing alone, though I have been thinking seriously of working up some arrangements which use that range. There are a few tunes that I play in more than one octave, and the more I practice that, the closer I come to being able to octave-shift any tune without having to think.

 

Where I'm most likely to use those highest notes is when playing with other instruments. Having an instrument playing in a different octave is a way to change the musical texture of a piece, to add variety, or simply to be heard as a separate instrument. When improvising accompaniment for a singer -- whether as the only instrument, or along with guitar, etc., -- occasional use of those high notes can be quite effective. While I can get along just fine without the highest notes even on a 48-button treble, I enjoy having them and using them.

[m3838]

I think what we often fall into is 'talking' much about playing, instead of 'playing'.

If we offer more examples of our playing instead of logic, it'd be much better.

I'm very curious how extended trebble might sound, when you shift octaves, with and without other instruments. I personally think the concertina sounds particularly funny in high register. I also think that in group playing been heard is not the goal. The goal is to add to the overall texture, like in an orchestra. I don't think symphony violinist needs to 'be heard'. Perhabs when a group of concertina players play a tune together on their 48 note Englishes note for note - one may want to be heard, but why - is another question.

Say if one plays Sonatina by Diabelly, one 'needs' high octave just to follow the score, but the sound will be so miserable, that serious re-arranging is needed. But where are you, arrangers???

Nobody answers.

Myself? Are you kidding?

[JimLucas]

I think what we often fall into is 'talking' much about playing, instead of 'playing'.

Well, at least I've been talking about playing that I've done, even though I don't have recorded examples. Unlike some, I don't normally carry a recorder to sessions where I might find myself improvising in the upper registers.

 

I'm very curious how extended trebble might sound, when you shift octaves, with and without other instruments. I personally think the concertina sounds particularly funny in high register.

Concertinas don't all sound the same even in the lower registers.

 

But since I don't agree with your perception, I wonder whether it could be a difference in taste or possibly even a difference in our hearing. I know one person who plays a baritone English because he has difficulty hearing the notes even in the upper part of the "normal" range, and another who finds rock music with heavy bass uninteresting because she can't hear the bass. Yet another can hear the echolocating squeaks of bats and was in physical pain from an electronic squeal which I couldn't hear at all, though I tried. I suspect she hears a much richer harmonic structure (timbre) in the higher concertina notes than even I do.

 

I think it would be very interesting to compare the frequency response curves of the ears of our various members, but it's not something we're normally given by our doctors, not even when they perform such a test. I would expect wide variations, and not just at the high and low ends, though most discussions seem to tacitly assume that everyone hears "the same thing".

 

I also think that in group playing been heard is not the goal. The goal is to add to the overall texture, like in an orchestra. I don't think symphony violinist needs to 'be heard'.

Being "heard" is not necessarily the same as being dominant, or even standing out. When a harmony is played against a melody, one "hears" both parts, as well as the combination. And "being heard" can also be part of adding to the overall texture. After all, a black and white checkerboard pattern is a quite different "texture" from blending the black and white into a uniform grey. Even in an orchestra, though one generally doesn't want to hear a single violin stand out from the others in the same section, it is desirable to be able to hear a difference when the flutes join the violins, or when a piccolo doubles the flute line an octave higher.

 

Say if one plays Sonatina by Diabelly, one 'needs' high octave just to follow the score, but the sound will be so miserable, that serious re-arranging is needed.

Your opinion. And I don't (yet) know the piece, so I don''t know whether I would agree with you or not. But if it really does sound miserable on the concertina (and not on the instrument for which it was written), then it may be better to not play it at all, rather than to rearrange it into something that won't really be the same. After all, there are many pieces that do sound good on the concertina.

 

But where are you, arrangers???

Nobody answers.

Well, you didn't exactly give them a chance. I think Juliette Daum (squeezora) would be a good candidate. She does some fine arranging, and spends more time at that than here on Concertina.net.

[ceemonster]

somehow i got the impression from the first post that the question involved tunes which lay out well for folks who play anglo concertina.

 

just now, i am having good luck with "larry's favourite," a three-parter by the late paddy o'brien. i am also finding "the old torn petticoat" (the a-minor version) to flow quite nicely, and same with "the corner house."

Edited August 6, 2007 by ceemonster

[JimLucas]

somehow i got the impression from the first post that the question involved tunes which lay out well for folks who play anglo concertina.

Quite so, and here's the quote:

What tunes do you all find to be easier on the C/G concertina?

But we all have different ways of looking at things. E.g., does "easier" mean easier on the anglo than on other instruments (hard to answer if you only play anglo), or easier on the anglo than other tunes on the anglo?

 

We also pick different details to emphasize. Larry said:

... I've noticed that some tunes which are easy on the fiddle ... are awkward on the concertina. Contrariwise, there are other tunes which just roll right out of an Anglo concertina but aren't as easy on the fiddle.

So some folks started discussing the concept that what's "easy" depends on the instrument. Non-anglo players started discussing what makes a tune "lay out" well on their own instruments. And others used this Topic as a springboard for launching their own personal concerns.

 

That's the way we play the game here, and it keeps things interesting.

 

So far this thread hasn't begun discussing how "lay out well" depends on the technique -- along the row, cross-row, C row as "home", G row as "home", etc. -- one normally uses in playing the anglo. But we don't need to discuss that here, since there are plenty of existing threads that touch on that... whenever somebody asks about fingering for a particular tune on the anglo.

 

Meanwhile, thanks to you and everyone who have suggested tunes that I now want to try out.