Concertinas And The Sea

[Dan Worrall]

Note also this Topic, which I've just revisited.

Jim,

 

That will be very interesting, if you can just get a photo or two (and a search for stampings and marks on the innards).

 

Dan

[Stephen Chambers]

Stuart Frank’s living sources suffer from the same problem that Stan Hugill did: they came too late. Stuart’s comment relies on oral sources from the present and near past. The last of the CapeHorners was in the mid twentieth century; we need to be looking several generations farther back.

Dan,

 

Both Cape Horners and playing the concertina were in decline in the first half of the twentieth century but, though it seems that Hugill didn't encounter any, there certainly were sailors who played the concertina during his time at sea, as we have seen.

 

I've never doubted that some sailors did play the concertina, like a proportion of the rest of the population in their day, but the issue that troubles me is when/why/how did the instrument come to have a particular association with sailors in the eyes of the public - and was it justified?

 

Frank ... does do a marvelous job in very painstakingly documenting one little anglo-german instrument, now in the Mariner’s Museum in Newport News, that belonged to a working sailor who had it on passages on a sailing ship through Cape Horn. He sums up several pages of data and analysis with this:

 

There can be but little doubt, based upon the corroborative oral ‘history’ of the concertina and the few pieces of physical evidence (the end stampings and the news clipping (found inside it)), combined with the well-documented histories of the Wavertree and moon and son (ships chandlers in Plymouth), that: this Anglo concertina originated in Germany and was exported to the British market; was acquired (probably by a sailor) form Moon & Son, purveyors to the maritime trade in the seaport town of Plymouth and its environs; went around Cape Horn in a sailing ship, date and vessel unknown; and was brought ashore at Victoria (B.C.) in December 1906 or January 1907 by a sailor, name unknown but possibly the same sailor who had brought it all the way from England, recently arrived from Newcastle, N.S.W., in the ship Wavertree of Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

It was almost certainly a sailor’s concertina in the Wavertree. More importantly, the Plymouth connection suggests that for ship chandlers to carry Anglo concertinas among their regular wares was perhaps more common than the absence of other evidence would indicate. For surely, when all else is said and done, the little German-made anglo bears the name of a well-known Plymouth firm, and even had it not found its way to sea, others like it must have been acquired by sailors and played aboard ship.

I'm afraid that, perhaps in trying a little too hard to prove his point, Mr. Frank seems to have jumped to an erroneous assumption here; the well-known Plymouth firm Moon and Sons were pianoforte makers rather than ship chandlers , but they evidently also sold other instruments as I remember seeing an 8-keyed flute bearing their stamp.

 

The ship chandlers’ connection is important, and it echoes what is known about the arrival of the anglo in Ireland. To quote Fintann Vallely in his ‘Companion to Irish Traditional Music’ (1999, Cork Univ. Press):

 

The concertina arrived originally in Co. Clare in the late 1800s in a variety of ways… (the first of which is via) river traffic to and from Limerick along the lower Shannon, one of the last ports of call for ships crossing the north Atlantic. Maritime chandlers stocked cheap German concertinas as part of their trade merchandise, and many of these were exchanged with river pilots and fishing communities on both sides of the Shannon in Clare, Limerick, and Kerry.

I wouldn't be too sure of that one either, and I've only heard that suggestion about the arrival of the concertina in Co. Clare from one person, though I don't know on what authority he suggests it (maybe as good as Mr. Frank's???). I've recently been living at Killimer on the Shannon Estuary (where the ferry crosses to Kerry), but I've not heard anything to suggest that the concertina was once popular here, likewise in Kilrush where Mrs. Crotty was the exception rather than the rule, coming from nearer to the (inland) Cree/Cooraclare concertina heartland.

 

I see no reason to think that the German concertina came to Clare through any other route than it did in the rest of Ireland (and it was once popular all over the country, not just in Clare), which was through normal trade channels. We know that the teacher/dealer/manufacturer Joseph Scates in Dublin wrote an "Instruction Book for the Improved German Concertina" in the early 1850s, and ordered a batch of Anglos off George Jones only a little later that same decade, whilst I have seen an announcement for a third delivery of concertinas to a dealer in a late 1860s Clare newspaper.

 

By the way, the Shannon Estuary pilots still ply their trade, as Foynes is Ireland's only deepwater port for todays huge cargo ships, not forgetting bulk coal deliveries to Moneypoint Power Station. Only a few weeks ago I stopped to give somebody a lift and he turned out to be a pilot making his way to pick up his next charge, but unfortunately he wasn't a concertina player ...

[Dirge]

the issue that troubles me is when/why/how did the instrument come to have a particular association with sailors in the eyes of the public - and was it justified? unsure.gif

To me it seems straight forward. A sailor needed to be able to take his whole life's chattels packed very small; stowage on a boat was at a premium and it had to be portable once ashore again. A concertina is about the only 'proper' instrument that could pack in a bag without being a nuisance. Surely it's a simple as that? There may not have been many of them but a more than any other (less portable) instrument. And they'd probably have taken it to the pub ashore at times too, where they would have been seen by landlubbers.

 

A more recent, slightly tangential sighting; I've just been reading 'Arctic Convoy' by 'Taffrail' published 1956. The author introduces it as 'more fact than fiction'. Basically it seems to be a factual history of the WW2 Arctic supply convoys written in novel form around a mythical central character, and we are assured that all the incidents are true and unelaborated (pretty grim they are too at times).

 

Anyway, the hero's girlfriend has a titled friend who adopts their destroyer and 'Through someone she knew at the Admiralty managed to send us periodical bales and parcels of books, games, musical instruments like concertinas and mouth organs, and masses of warm clothing for officers and men, which were very welcome.' I think this backs up my 'easy to pack' theory, but you may feel it simply reinforces 'everyone expected sailors to play the concertina' .

[Stephen Chambers]

the issue that troubles me is when/why/how did the instrument come to have a particular association with sailors in the eyes of the public - and was it justified? unsure.gif

To me it seems straight forward. A sailor needed to be able to take his whole life's chattels packed very small; stowage on a boat was at a premium and it had to be portable once ashore again. A concertina is about the only 'proper' instrument that could pack in a bag without being a nuisance. Surely it's a simple as that? There may not have been many of them but a more than any other (less portable) instrument. And they'd probably have taken it to the pub ashore at times too, where they would have been seen by landlubbers.

OK, but piccolos, fifes, mouth organs and tinwhistles pack a lot smaller, and sailors did play them ...

 

... the hero's girlfriend has a titled friend who adopts their destroyer and 'Through someone she knew at the Admiralty managed to send us periodical bales and parcels of books, games, musical instruments like concertinas and mouth organs, and masses of warm clothing for officers and men, which were very welcome.' I think this backs up my 'easy to pack' theory, but you may feel it simply reinforces 'everyone expected sailors to play the concertina' .

Well as I've said, there does seem to be evidence for a Royal Navy tradition of concertina playing, though I wonder just how many sailors were even interested in (what had become) such an old-fashioned instrument by that time. I think you'll find there were far more piano accordions being played during WW2!

[JimLucas]

I haven't been able to find the quote from Hugill (that he NEVER saw a concertina at sea)...do you know where it can be found, and what its context was?

I'm simply going on what Stuart M. Frank, Director, The Kendall Whaling Museum says in his article "Concertina Around Cape Horn" (in C & S, Spring 1984, Vol. II, No. 2, pp. 10-18):

The square-rig sailors who have survived to tell of the experiences with shipboard music - including the late Carl Andersen of Mystic Seaport Museum, Captain A.F. Raynaud (now a marine surveyor in Seattle who was involved in the restoration of the Star of India in San Diego), and the irrepressible Stan Hugill of Aberdovey, Wales - are all unanimous in claiming never to have seen a concertina on shipboard, even once.

We in the internet age, like our predecessors (or even ourselves) in the age of print, seem to labor under the assumption that everything that anyone ever said has been documented in our favorite medium.

 

Seems to me that Stuart may be quoting from a private conversation with Stan -- whom he knew personally, -- rather than something from one of Stan's books. I wonder how many other things Stan -- or John Kirkpatrick, for that matter -- has said, which exist only in someone's memory or have been lost forever.

[Musical Sore]

I remember reading, years ago, "Swept Channels", by "Taffrail", a fascinating (and, I seem to remember, first-hand) account of wartime minesweeping. The same author? Or are there two Taffrails?

 

My uncle joined the Royal Navy from school in the 1930s and served for many years in ships and submarines. His widow recently saw my concertina and told me that my uncle always wished he could play one.

 

This, of course, proves absolutely nothing.

[Dirge]

Yes I think that's the same one. I looked him up on the internet today and didn't find much but he did have experience in arctic waters and on mine sweepers but in WW1, so that might explain Stephen's concern that concertinas were outmoded by then; could be a personal anecdote that had dated, although he clearly didn't think his potential audience would be surprised.

[Dan Worrall]

Hi, Stephen; here are a few thoughts on your reply and queries...as always, interesting and edifying!

 

"I'm afraid that, perhaps in trying a little too hard to prove his point, Mr. Frank seems to have jumped to an erroneous assumption here; the well-known Plymouth firm Moon and Sons were pianoforte makers rather than ship chandlers , but they evidently also sold other instruments as I remember seeing an 8-keyed flute bearing their stamp."

 

I’ve seen the few web references to Moon and Son Pianos, and even a lithograph of Plymouth with a sign saying Moon Pianos. However, this is what Stuart Frank had to say about it; clearly it will need more checking, as he is pretty specific about it (but not necessarily correct of course):

“ I am grateful to a former student (now a museum curator) and several British museum colleagues for the information that Moon & Son were a firm of ship’s chandlers, outfitters and provisioners, based in Plymouth but apparently active throughout the Cornwall and Devon seacoast in the latter nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, with a trade that extended to the relatively nearby ports of Falmouth and Torquay, many of whose vessels were part-owned and outfitted from the larger port of Plymouth. This fixes the concertina in a firm maritime context in the West of England at the appropriate time…”

 

Like I said, there needs to be more checking on this. Regardless, whether Moon was a chandler or a musical instrument seller makes but little difference in the overall story….this instrument was owned and used by a sailor during years at sea.

 

"I've recently been living at Killimer on the Shannon Estuary (where the ferry crosses to Kerry), but I've not heard anything to suggest that the concertina was once popular here, likewise in Kilrush where Mrs. Crotty was the exception rather than the rule, coming from nearer to the (inland) Cree/Cooraclare concertina heartland."

 

I’d be cautious here. As you said, the concertina was once found all across Ireland. For example, William Mullaly played it amongst others in his youth in Westmeath, but I’d bet you would have a hard time (until very recently) scratching up many angloers there. Gearoid O Hallmhurain’s PICA article, of earlier this year, had a map of Clare concertina players (1880 to present) that showed quite a few players in the area around Kilrush and its environs. Remember, the high tide was in the mid to late nineteenth century for German concertinas, followed by a decline, even in Ireland. What is happening today or in the recent past is not always the best indicator…things go too far back for that.

 

"I see no reason to think that the German concertina came to Clare through any other route than it did in the rest of Ireland (and it was once popular all over the country, not just in Clare), which was through normal trade channels. We know that the teacher/dealer/manufacturer Joseph Scates in Dublin wrote an "Instruction Book for the Improved German Concertina" in the early 1850s, and ordered a batch of Anglos off George Jones only a little later that same decade, whilst I have seen an announcement for a third delivery of concertinas to a dealer in a late 1860s Clare newspaper."

 

Fair enough. But both Fintan Vallely and Gearoid O Hallmhurain, who have made the only two ‘serious’ written attempts at Irish concertina history that I have yet seen (I’d be very happy to hear of others!), both mention the chandlers-to-sailors-to-Shannon estuary route as only the point of first contact; Gearoid calls this route the “initial courier” of the instrument to Ireland. Both also point out that other local shops soon carried them, and that women bought them with egg money, etc. It would seem to be difficult to really pin down the “initial courier” bit….that goes ‘way back, and no one seems to be quoting hard sources! I think everyone would agree with you that normal land trade channels out of Dublin would suffice for the vast bulk of the trade, once established. If anglos could show up in shops in Utah and Idaho in the 1860s, via transcontinental wagon train, then it seems like someone could schlep it by rail and muddy boreens (or by ship) from Dublin to west Clare during the same time period.

 

One thing is for sure…German concertinas were very popular in Ireland by the 1870s. I have an advertisement for a ‘Great Band Contest and Concertina Contest’ for June 9 1877 in Dublin, 140 years ago this month. Amongst the top prize was one for ‘Solo Concertina Playing’ on ‘German Concertina’; ‘competition confined to five paid-up competitors…professionals excluded’. At this large and well-advertised Ireland-wide contest, the only competitors were brass bands and German concertinas….no pipes, no fiddles. Interesting; the GC fad was in full swing.

 

"I've never doubted that some sailors did play the concertina, like a proportion of the rest of the population in their day, but the issue that troubles me is when/why/how did the instrument come to have a particular association with sailors in the eyes of the public - and was it justified?"

 

It just might be that association is so because it was so! All of the articles I quote in previous postings mention concertinas as if they were entirely commonplace on board those vessels. I suggest we chuck the few ‘first hand’ oral anecdotes of the recent concertina revival era to the contrary, and go with written documents from the more distant time in question. Speaking of which, here is a dandy one, courtesy of the Irish Free State customs department (the “Waterguard”), in the Meath Chronicle of April 7 1923:

 

“Before sailors are allowed ashore their ship is rummaged by the Waterguard. The officers have an intimate knowledge of the wiles of seamen smugglers. They search every part of the vessel….Tobacco and spirits have been frequently found in …unlikely hiding places….An officer once told me that the most ingenious smuggler he had ever heard about was a tough old salt who always carried his concertina ashore after every voyage. One day an officer asked him to play a sailor’s hornpipe. He refused. The officer said he would play it. But the concertina was unworkable because it was filled with choice cigars.”

 

Interesting that

a)the concertina and the old salt are mentioned together in the account as if they were an ordinary combination

b)the wily old salt chose the least suspicious vessel he could find for his smuggling…who would suspect anything as ordinary as a sailor’s concertina?

c)The tune the officer asked for was a sailor’s hornpipe…not a reel, not a pop song.

 

Why not just accept the facts at face value? Sailors were commonly known to play them! I think I’m done with this thread, but have been happy to read (and learn from) all the comments.

 

Dan

[Stephen Chambers]

I’ve seen the few web references to Moon and Son Pianos, and even a lithograph of Plymouth with a sign saying Moon Pianos. However, this is what Stuart Frank had to say about it; clearly it will need more checking, as he is pretty specific about it (but not necessarily correct of course):

“ I am grateful to a former student (now a museum curator) and several British museum colleagues for the information that Moon & Son were a firm of ship’s chandlers, outfitters and provisioners, based in Plymouth but apparently active throughout the Cornwall and Devon seacoast in the latter nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, with a trade that extended to the relatively nearby ports of Falmouth and Torquay, many of whose vessels were part-owned and outfitted from the larger port of Plymouth. This fixes the concertina in a firm maritime context in the West of England at the appropriate time…”

 

Like I said, there needs to be more checking on this.

Indeed so, though I did take the precaution of checking Kelly's 1893 Directory of Devon & Cornwall myself, under both "Moon" and under "Ship Chandlers" before I posted, and I've also checked under "Ship Owners" as well as "Agents - Ships & Shipping" after reading the above, however I did find a "Chemist and Druggist" in Ilfracombe also called Moon & Son. It would seem very strange for such an allegedly large concern not to be listed...

 

Regardless, whether Moon was a chandler or a musical instrument seller makes but little difference in the overall story….this instrument was owned and used by a sailor during years at sea.

Agreed, but I'm afraid Moon & Son seems not to be a very good example of a ship chandler for Mr. Frank to base his argument on.

 

"I've recently been living at Killimer on the Shannon Estuary (where the ferry crosses to Kerry), but I've not heard anything to suggest that the concertina was once popular here, likewise in Kilrush where Mrs. Crotty was the exception rather than the rule, coming from nearer to the (inland) Cree/Cooraclare concertina heartland."

 

I’d be cautious here. ... Gearoid O Hallmhurain’s PICA article, of earlier this year, had a map of Clare concertina players (1880 to present) that showed quite a few players in the area around Kilrush and its environs.

Thanks for pointing out Gearoid O hAllmhurain’s PICA article to me, I'm afraid I wasn't aware of it previously, though he is the person I was thinking of in connection with the "concertinas via sailors on the Shannon Estuary" theory. However, I notice that he doesn't name, or even refer to any sailor or ship's pilot from the area who is actually known to have played the concertina...

 

Looking at his map, I see that it bears out exactly what I said. The bulk of the plots on it are in the Cree/Cooraclare region, inland to the north of Kilrush, with hardly a player shown on the banks of the Estuary. By the way, I've met many of the players he names, and counted some of them as friends, though (sadly) few of them are still with us today.

 

I have an advertisement for a ‘Great Band Contest and Concertina Contest’ for June 9 1877 in Dublin, 140 years ago this month. Amongst the top prize was one for ‘Solo Concertina Playing’ on ‘German Concertina’; ‘competition confined to five paid-up competitors…professionals excluded’.

That's very interesting, I'd love to see it! I wonder if the competition was reported on anywhere?

 

I suggest we chuck the few ‘first hand’ oral anecdotes of the recent concertina revival era to the contrary, and go with written documents from the more distant time in question. Speaking of which, here is a dandy one, courtesy of the Irish Free State customs department (the “Waterguard”), in the Meath Chronicle of April 7 1923

But isn't that in the twentieth century, while Stan Hugill was at sea...

 

Why not just accept the facts at face value? Sailors were commonly known to play them!

And likewise they are documented as commonly playing melodeons, fiddles, banjos etc. etc. In fact whatever was popular with landsmen at the time...

Edited June 14, 2007 by Stephen Chambers

[Dan Worrall]

Stephen: I'm no good at the 'quote' feature on the Forum...how does one use it?

 

On Gearoid’s Clare concertina players map: Thanks for pointing out Gearoid O hAllmhurain’s PICA article to me, I'm afraid I wasn't aware of it previously, though he is the person I was thinking of in connection with the "concertinas via sailors on the Shannon Estuary" theory. Looking at his map, I see that it bears out exactly what I said. The bulk of the plots on it are in the Cree/Cooraclare region, inland to the north of Kilrush, with hardly a player shown on the banks of the Estuary.

 

Are we looking at the same map? I see one player located near Carrigaholt, another near Moyasta, one east of Kilmurry McMahon along the Kilrush road, and three near Killadysert….all these little villages are right on the Shannon estuary. Of the three or four shown ‘north of Kilrush’, we’d have to ask Gearoid, but some of these may actually be in Kilrush …note how he puts several symbols around Ennis because otherwise they wouldn’t show properly because of crowding. There is a lot more action along the Shannon estuary coast than there is in, say, east Clare (Mary McNamara country). I envy you being able to travel those roads; its lovely countryside there.

 

Stuart Frank’s maritime concertina: Agreed, but I'm afraid Moon & Son seems not to be a very good example of a ship chandler for Mr. Frank to base his argument on.

 

Stuart Frank was mainly trying to show that the concertina had been used at sea, and that it was purchased in a seaside town (Plymouth). The marking said ‘Moon/Plymouth’, which gets him there regardless of whether Moon was a chandler. I suspect you are quite correct…that Moon was a piano and musical instrument seller, and one who had a few AngloGerman concertinas to sell….some to sailors who passed by his shop there. I’ll send Frank a line and see if he knows more.

 

The 1877 Great Band and Concertina Contest in Dublin: That's very interesting, I'd love to see it! I wonder if the competition was reported on anywhere?

 

Sure thing; I’ll scan it and send to you off line. I have been collecting a few bits and references for a little backburner project on the beginnings of concertina playing in Ireland. All the existing published accounts on the beginnings of Irish concertina playing reach a brick wall at about the turn of the century (1900), with little to perhaps no documentation of how things were started there. The reason for this is that oral histories collected in the past 30 or so years just don't reach back far enough (like Hugill), and no one has yet done the library work to fill in the rest. There ARE patchy documents that help fill this story in. The 1877 contest, BTW, was advertised in a Dublin paper of the day. The concertina competition was judged by one Thomas McCarthy, and the prize was a German Concertina. Tickets were sold in advance ‘to avoid any crushing at the doors’. The contest material included a set of waltzes with variations, in ten minutes of play. The results were not reported, unfortunately. I wonder if the late Tommy McCarthy, rest his soul, knew that he had a namesake judging concertina contests over a century before he himself was teaching at Willie Week?

 

The smuggling, concertina-toting sailor story: But isn't that in the twentieth century, while Stan Hugill was at sea...

 

Not exactly. This 1923 article was a reminiscence of things that had happened previously in the customs agents careers….so some unknown years prior to the article. BTW, I don’t know if our old salt smuggler was truly a ‘sail’ sailor or a steamship sailor. But he was ‘old’! Hugill didn’t get to sea until 1922, and his big years on the last of the Cape Horners were in the middle and late 1920s...after the article. Again, I think some folks are reading way too much into a comment by Stan based upon his observances in sailing in the 1920s and later...there doesn't seem to be much else in negative evidence, and NO negative evidence from the nineteenth century that I have seen (just positive occurrences) .

 

Sailors with concertinas: And likewise they are documented as commonly playing melodeons, fiddles, banjos etc. etc. In fact whatever was popular with landsmen at the time...

 

Maybe….but I’m not finding nearly as many accounts of those instruments as I am concertinas. And no smuggled cigars in banjos…yet!

 

Dan

[John Wild]

 

The 1877 Great Band and Concertina Contest in Dublin: That's very interesting, I'd love to see it! I wonder if the competition was reported on anywhere?

 

Sure thing; I’ll scan it and send to you off line.

Dan

 

Perhaps you could consider also passing a copy to the ICA archive?

 

best wishes

 

John Wild

 

PS in each message you should see a 'quote' button to the left of the 'reply' button. You can quote by clicking on quote first, then reply. The text of the quote can be edited but the opening bracket

should be left in.

[Brian Peters]

OK, but piccolos, fifes, mouth organs and tinwhistles pack a lot smaller, and sailors did play them ...

But none of those has the 'one-man band' attraction of the concertina. And neither are they ideal to sing with.....

 

Just wanted to say thanks to all, especially Dan Worrall, for a fascinating thread.

Brian

[Dan Worrall]

 

The 1877 Great Band and Concertina Contest in Dublin: That's very interesting, I'd love to see it! I wonder if the competition was reported on anywhere?

 

Sure thing; I’ll scan it and send to you off line.

Dan

 

Perhaps you could consider also passing a copy to the ICA archive?

 

best wishes

 

John Wild

 

PS in each message you should see a 'quote' button to the left of the 'reply' button. You can quote by clicking on quote first, then reply. The text of the quote can be edited but the opening bracket

should be left in.

 

John,

Will do so; I'm in the midst of putting the 1877 advert, amongst some other little gems I've found in Irish sources, into a brief note on the beginnings of concertina playing in 19th Century Ireland; if it is deemed of interest I'll submit it to either ICA's PICA or to the C Library. EIther way, I'll make sure you and the ICA get it.

Thanks for the quoting tips (and ditto to David B., who emailed them to me.)

 

Brian,

Glad you liked the little history bits. How about recording some 'sailor's hornpipes' and a few forebiters on your next CD?

 

Best,

Dan

[Dan Worrall]

Cheez. I thought that quote feature would work. I give up!

[Brian Peters]

Brian,

Glad you liked the little history bits. How about recording some 'sailor's hornpipes' and a few forebiters on your next CD?

I play maritime festivals occasionally and have a decent repertoire of maritime-themed songs, quite a few of which would probably have served as forebitters in their time. However my next recording is going to be of Child Ballads so won't be including too many instrumentals.

 

The relationship between 'hornpipes' (very popular in the English dance repertoire of 200 years ago) and 'sailors' is a topic that might well provoke a debate as lively as that we've just seen on "Concertinas and the sea"!

Brian

[michael stutesman]

Cheez. I thought that quote feature would work. I give up!

I can't make it work either!!!

[John Wild]

Cheez. I thought that quote feature would work. I give up!

I can't make it work either!!!

 

Well, you have now!

[michael stutesman]

Cheez. I thought that quote feature would work. I give up!

I can't make it work either!!!

 

Well, you have now!

 

only if I quote the whole piece!