Missing Accidentals

[Peter Brook]

I'm also becoming interested in melodeons, this is a very worrying turn of events.

 

This is very worrying - don't do it

Don't tell me you'e been seduced by the wiles of the Lilly's?

 

Getting back toward the topic, a melodeon is just an anglo with the accidentals missing so you should be right at home

Edited May 18, 2007 by Peter Brook

[m3838]

 

And even on the 48-button models, the majority of the accidentals are not duplicated.

 

Jim, you are saying that on a 48 button instrument 'majority' of accidentals are 'not' duplicated?

That's news for me. What do you mean?

I definitely don't miss those squeaky squeaks at the top of Trebble English Concertina. I think they were put there by a mistake.

The reason for this thread was my private exchange with some concertina player, who suggested that recommending Jackie to a beginner is very ill advice. What do you mean by "setting a Straw Man"? Never heard of this expression.

[Woody]

 

And even on the 48-button models, the majority of the accidentals are not duplicated.

 

Jim, you are saying that on a 48 button instrument 'majority' of accidentals are 'not' duplicated?

That's news for me. What do you mean?

I definitely don't miss those squeaky squeaks at the top of Trebble English Concertina. I think they were put there by a mistake.

The reason for this thread was my private exchange with some concertina player, who suggested that recommending Jackie to a beginner is very ill advice. What do you mean by "setting a Straw Man"? Never heard of this expression.

From Wiki.....

 

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.

 

Its name is derived from the practice of using straw men in combat training. In such training, a scarecrow is made in the image of the enemy with the single intent of attacking it.[1] It is occasionally called a straw dog fallacy,[2] scarecrow argument, or wooden dummy argument."

Edited May 18, 2007 by Woody

[JimLucas]

And even on the 48-button models, the majority of the accidentals are not duplicated.

Jim, you are saying that on a 48 button instrument 'majority' of accidentals are 'not' duplicated?

I think it's pretty clear that I said that.

 

That's news for me. What do you mean?

In each octave on a standard English concertina (in equal tempered tuning), the D# is duplicated by the Eb and the G# is duplicated by the Ab (or vice versa, if you prefer). The Bb, F#, and C# are not duplicated. I.e., there is no A#, Gb, or Db. Three non-duplications are more than two duplications, thus a majority.

 

I definitely don't miss those squeaky squeaks at the top of Trebble English Concertina. I think they were put there by a mistake.

Your loss. Although I don't use them as much as the lower ones, I do find them useful, especially (but not only) to provide variety when other instruments are playing. In fact, I sometimes get caught out by reaching for buttons in the "extended treble" range when I'm playing "only" a 48-button treble.

 

The reason for this thread was my private exchange with some concertina player, who suggested that recommending Jackie to a beginner is very ill advice.

Someone not a Concertina.net Forum member? If they were a member here, I would expect them to be debating the issue with quite a few of us.

 

What do you mean by "setting a Straw Man"? Never heard of this expression.

You can find a few definitions here. In particular, your claim of "taking away players choice" is a straw man -- a false front of flimsy construction, -- because those for whom it's intended are not expected to have those choices beforehand, so they cannot be taken away. Yes, someone already experienced with standard 48-button English concertinas might experience some awkwardness from certain buttons not being present on the Jackie, but that's not who the Jackie is intended for. It's not meant as a replacement for the standard treble English, and certainly not as a step up from it, but as a step toward it.

[m3838]

You've been too literate, Jim.

When you provide a 3 row chromatic accordion to a beginner, you certainly "take away" his choice of fingering in different keys, because established "school" of teaching assumes nowadays that you do have the choice, and supplies the teaching method accordingly. Or most Piano Accordion methods in the US assume that you have a choice between reed combinations, and offer suggestions at how to play the piece better: Left Hand - MML and Right hand - MH.

A beginner may not feel the need first few days, but then it becomes quite apparent that something's missing. Traditional Russian Bayan school assumes you have 120 buttons, 5 octave trebble, MM dry tuned, no switches, 3 rows. But modern Russian Bayan shcool assumes you have 120 bass Converter, 5 voice MMHL in trebble and 5 rows. Anything less is considered 'student' instrument of inferiour status. Lots of snobism here, I agree, but if you have a teacher, you go along with his/her predispositions.

Or Noel Hill, who'd rather have students with C/G 30 buttons Concertinas.

Or Jack Guilder, who declined to teach me a few years ago, because I only had 20 button Lachenal. His teaching method couldn't accomodate my "limitations". although traditionally all famous Irish players played 20 button, even German made instruments.

On EC: silly me, I didn't even check the accidentals to easily see, that indeed 3 out of 5 are not duplicated. So for me, the Jackie doesn't miss anything. Which is proven by my own practice with Harmony Application method. The only thing I miss is those high notes, if I want to be anal with the Method and do exactly as scored.

Edited May 18, 2007 by m3838

[asdormire]

You mean that buying a brand new grand piano is not going to mean fame and fortune as a concert pianist on the concert platform by the weekend Damn chris (in the height of optimism)

Not unless some canny agent has prearranged the publicity and the bookings for whoever it is that was going to buy the piano.

 

Well, maybe if you managed to get arrested for drunk driving just before your first attempt to play the thing.

 

But whatever you do, don't waste your time practicing on a spinet before you get the big one.

 

 

I hear "stolen" sex tapes are the best form of publicity these days

 

Alan

[chainyanker]

too often we focus on limits, and not on whats there. jmho

[Stephen Chambers]

And even on the 48-button models, the majority of the accidentals are not duplicated.

Jim, you are saying that on a 48 button instrument 'majority' of accidentals are 'not' duplicated?

That's news for me. What do you mean?

In each octave on a standard English concertina (in equal tempered tuning), the D# is duplicated by the Eb and the G# is duplicated by the Ab (or vice versa, if you prefer). The Bb, F#, and C# are not duplicated. I.e., there is no A#, Gb, or Db. Three non-duplications are more than two duplications, thus a majority.

And historically the dupicate accidentals were not a feature of the earliest English concertinas, like the prototype (my avatar), or this one (Wheatstone #112):

 

 

They were added to the design as the instrument grew in range, initially (as Jim hints) to solve the difficulty of the wolf notes in unequally tempered tuning - so that G# and Ab are different notes, and likewise D# and Eb. In which case there was no "duplication" of buttons until equal temperament became standard on English concertinas later in the 19th century (and even into the early 20th century on Jeffries Anglos).

Edited May 20, 2007 by Stephen Chambers

[Daniel Hersh]

What? "All famous Irish players"? Who do you mean? And famous to whom?

 

Traditionally all famous Irish players played 20 button, even German made instruments.

[m3838]

What? "All famous Irish players"? Who do you mean? And famous to whom?

 

Traditionally all famous Irish players played 20 button, even German made instruments.

 

Oh stop it!

If Jack Guilder (with gazillions of others) enjoys Irish traditional music, it is useful to remember that it originates in Ireland. Yes, yes, in that very Ireland, poor and hungry, where folk musicians were not elite and were lucky, if they could get that plywood German Concertina with 20 buttons. All of a sudden we puff our cheeks and demand expencive English made 30 buttons at least, because we are teaching Irish music, in the freaking key of D. How come a diatonic instrument has to be chromatic to play diatonic music?

I was seriously put back after I called Jack. He literally sent me away, some conservatory he is. I sold my 20 button Lachenal, lost money, and went back to accordion.

[Daniel Hersh]

Quit beating up on Jack. I sat next to him at a workshop last year and played a hornpipe on a 20-button German D/A to illustrate the simpler and older on-the-row Irish style, and he was not at all critical and suggested to the audience that they listen to Kitty Hayes's recordings if they wanted to hear more along those lines. Then he (at my request) demonstrated the more fashionable Noel Hill-type style on his 30-button Wheatstone. He teaches that style because that's what he plays and what he knows how to teach. He's not a conservatory, he's one guy. He's a lot more open-minded about what constitutes good concertina playing than you give him credit for.

 

Kitty Hayes is a fine player of Irish music on the concertina. So is Noel Hill. So is Micheal o Raighallaigh. So are Mary Macnamara and Claire Keville and Niall Vallely and many others. They're all Irish. They all sound different. They play concertinas in different keys and with different numbers of buttons. Sabra Daly in our own area sounds wonderful playing Irish music on a 26-button G/D.

 

The old 20-button along-the-row style is legitimately Irish and sounds great in the hands of the right player. The flashier, highly ornamented style is just as legitimate and just as Irish and goes back at least 80 years to William Mullally.

 

You get my point, I think...

 

Daniel

 

What? "All famous Irish players"? Who do you mean? And famous to whom?

Traditionally all famous Irish players played 20 button, even German made instruments.

Oh stop it!

If Jack Guilder (with gazillions of others) enjoys Irish traditional music, it is useful to remember that it originates in Ireland. Yes, yes, in that very Ireland, poor and hungry, where folk musicians were not elite and were lucky, if they could get that plywood German Concertina with 20 buttons. All of a sudden we puff our cheeks and demand expencive English made 30 buttons at least, because we are teaching Irish music, in the freaking key of D. How come a diatonic instrument has to be chromatic to play diatonic music?

I was seriously put back after I called Jack. He literally sent me away, some conservatory he is. I sold my 20 button Lachenal, lost money, and went back to accordion.

[m3838]

The old 20-button along-the-row style is legitimately Irish and sounds great

 

You tell that to Jack. I don't feel like beating on him at all. For quite a few months I was felt like been beaten.

I couln't never understand what's the big fuss about "playing along the row" vs. "playing across the rows" styles. With diatonic push/pull instrument you often simply don't have the choice, and the accompaniment dictates the row and belows. And if one plays only melody, one plays only half concertina. It's not Irish, nor playing melody only is not English. And how about French or Armenian? If you are profficient enough to teach for income, you should find no difficulty playing along the row or whatever. It's not the key that's important, or what notes where to push/pull. I have forgotten all about it untill this suraced. But that's quite a drift.

Anyhow, I got my answers, thanks everyone for expressing your views.

[Stephen Chambers]

Mischka,

 

Do you not think that there might be a bit of a contradiction in your attitude towards the bayan, and its teachers:

When you provide a 3 row chromatic accordion to a beginner, you certainly "take away" his choice of fingering in different keys, because established "school" of teaching assumes nowadays that you do have the choice, and supplies the teaching method accordingly.

A beginner may not feel the need first few days, but then it becomes quite apparent that something's missing. Traditional Russian Bayan school assumes you have 120 buttons, 5 octave trebble, MM dry tuned, no switches, 3 rows. But modern Russian Bayan shcool assumes you have 120 bass Converter, 5 voice MMHL in trebble and 5 rows. Anything less is considered 'student' instrument of inferiour status. Lots of snobism here, I agree, but if you have a teacher, you go along with his/her predispositions.

 

And the Anglo-German concertina, and its teachers:

Jack Guilder, ... declined to teach me a few years ago, because I only had 20 button Lachenal. His teaching method couldn't accomodate my "limitations". although traditionally all famous Irish players played 20 button, even German made instruments.

If Jack Guilder (with gazillions of others) enjoys Irish traditional music, it is useful to remember that it originates in Ireland. Yes, yes, in that very Ireland, poor and hungry, where folk musicians were not elite and were lucky, if they could get that plywood German Concertina with 20 buttons. All of a sudden we puff our cheeks and demand expencive English made 30 buttons at least, because we are teaching Irish music, in the freaking key of D. How come a diatonic instrument has to be chromatic to play diatonic music?

Much as I love the sound of it (for solo, old-style playing), the 20-key German concertina (and the 20-key Anglo) became obsolete as a mainstream instrument in Ireland around half a century ago, and all the truly famous players here have played Anglo-Chromatic concertinas with 30 keys or more. I don't believe there is a single teacher in Ireland who wouldn't tell you that a 20-key instrument was unsuitable for Irish music (as it is played today), and suggest that you should buy a three-row Anglo to learn on.

 

The German concertina belongs to an era when people here rarely played together, so that volume and the ability to play in the same keys as other instruments didn't matter, but that all started to change in the 1930s with the formation of ceilidh bands.

 

I couln't never understand what's the big fuss about "playing along the row" vs. "playing across the rows" styles. With diatonic push/pull instrument you often simply don't have the choice ...

But playing across the rows on an Anglo is precisely what does provide the player with a "choice of fingering in different keys" (as you put it with regard to the bayan).

 

Like you said: "A beginner may not feel the need first few days, but then it becomes quite apparent that something's missing."

Edited May 21, 2007 by Stephen Chambers

[m3838]

Perhabs you're right and I do contradict myself a bit.

I just didn't realize that people may stick to certain "fingering" in a certain "key" and call it a school. I thought there is more freedom and acceptance. So instead of "Here's my preferences, but let's try and see" I heard "No". I was unprepared. After all right at that time my daughter was taking piano lessons, and all we had was electronic keyboard.

[Hooves]

Gentlemen, Gentlemen,

 

The problem is so simple to solve, no need for harsh words: pack up that English, put away that Anglo, unstrap yourself from the behemoth and take a deep long breath. Prepare yourselves for that moment of truth that echoes through the missing notes and diatonic slures,

 

What you want is a Duet.

 

All your concertina cotton-covered dreams will come true when you release yourselves from the stradling reins of those "other" systems.

 

Like a falling star that lands in your front yard on a humid summer night, like a firefly inching its way out of its hexagonal cocoon; steel, brass and wood resonate beneath your finger tips, and every melody you have ever dreamed or heard flows from the lacey fretwork.

 

Do you want to know true concertina piece of mind?

 

Do you want to wake up clamering to get your hands round your tina?

 

Do you want to hear melodies, jigs, and reels spinning round your head?

 

 

Yes, you do: its time for a Duet.

 

You will never look back, and you will find that inner calm only a duet player knows.

[stuart estell]

You will never look back, and you will find that inner calm only a duet player knows.

 

Oh, it's from playing a duet? I thought it was just the beer.

[m3838]

How many buttons per inch of inner calm?

(Oh boy, that was a good one )

[Dirge]

Hooves, Hooves, NEVER EVER tell them the truth. They can't handle it.