Tenor English Button Layout

[spindizzy]

I've been in love with the tenor treble that a local session player has and am saving my pennies for something similar. I've noticed that Chris Algar has an interesting tenor for sale on ebay at the moment and was wondering on the button layout of tenors in general.

 

How much relearning of fingerings is needed to swap between a tenor and a treble (which I currently play) ie do the notes swap sides at all or just shift vertically?

 

Also a tenor/treble chart would be nice. I've ahd a play on one of these and it seems to mostly be a slight vertical adjustment is all that's needed to play the same tune at the same pitch. Of course to play an octave down does need to swap hands!

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

I've noticed that Chris Algar has an interesting tenor for sale on ebay at the moment...

Do you have a link? I couldn't find it.

 

...and was wondering on the button layout of tenors in general.

 

How much relearning of fingerings is needed to swap between a tenor and a treble (which I currently play) ie do the notes swap sides at all or just shift vertically?

A standard tenor-treble has no swapping of sides. Depending on the number of buttons, there may not even be a "vertical" shift (relative to the position of the thumbstrap), but merely a "downward" extension. (That's the case with my 64-button TT, which also extends upwards from the 48-button treble layout.)

 

I have seen reports of "tenor" concertinas (48-button only, I think) arranged with a central key of F (rather than C), but even that would mean that a only couple of notes would be in shifted locations, while most would not. And such tenors are rare enough that I have yet to encounter one "in the flesh".

 

Also a tenor/treble chart would be nice.

It should be easy enough for you to make your own. Take a standard treble chart, and just add one more button at the bottom of each "column". In labelling the new buttons, just continue the pattern of the inside two columns alternating notes of the C scale, then next to each natural note place the same accidental as in the upper octaves.

 

Of course to play an octave down does need to swap hands!

If you mount them with velcro, that shouldn't be too hard.

[Robin Harrison]

Mccann

 

Jim, for some reason Chris Algar seems to be selling on Ebay.uk these days.Import duties, shipping too high ?

Robin

[JimLucas]

Mccann

 

Jim, for some reason Chris Algar seems to be selling on Ebay.uk these days.Import duties, shipping too high ?

Funny. I thought my settings were supposed to get me all eBay listings, no matter which local eBay they were posted on. Thanks.

 

Still, I don't see the tenor English that spindizzy indicates Chris A has for sale.

[Robin Harrison]

Sorry, I didn't mean to post the Mccann..................he taken the tenor off.

[spindizzy]

Sorry - I meant to add a link to the auction and now it's gone!

It was a very interesting box.... a 43 key (I think) single action tenor. ie it played only on the push. Chris Algar's description said that it was VERY fast action with no valves or other bits to slow it down.

 

I expect it would take some practice to get the breathing right though :-)

 

He also said that while it wasn't in brass band pitch, it had the B and Bflat reeds swapped to make for easier playing in F - a mod that could be easily undone (no reed chambers either).

 

Chris

[Perry Werner]

How much relearning of fingerings is needed to swap between a tenor and a treble (which I currently play) ie do the notes swap sides at all or just shift vertically?

 

I recently purchased a Tenor Treble to find that it took a few weeks of playing to get used to the keyboard. I also went through this change in my mind prior to purchase and drove myself a bit nuts trying to figure "now if I do this, then how will that happen?" or "maybe I better see if I can get a set of longer fingers to reach down to the additional buttons", etc.

 

Now that I have it am working working with it, it is starting to make sense though I am still have a few problems twisting my fingers around at the bottom of the range to play chords. Plus, I am still using the handstraps which might be encumbering my playing down there. I like the secure feeling of the handstraps, but will play around with not using them. Also, at times I feel like I'm wearing a set of handcuffs and feel kind of constricted with them.

 

Basically it's matter of holding a larger, bit heavier instrument and just working on playing the little extra "hunk" of the keyboard down there.

 

Also when shifting from treble to the T/T (or the other way) it takes a few minutes to get reaclamated to the finger positioning on the keyboard. But that's getting better also with some conscious attention of counting up buttons from the bottom.

 

Also, was just wondering, does a similar "problem" occur the other way with extended trebles?

I'm guessing that the stretch upwards would be a bit easier as compared with the need to kind of scruntch together one's fingers (mine anyway) at the lower end of a T/T,

 

 

..................he taken the tenor off.

 

I also went looking for it again last night to re-read the interesting (strange) description to find that it was no longer listed.

 

Have fun,

Perry Werner

Edited March 28, 2007 by Perry Werner

[Musical Sore]

Just a thought. And probably not a good thought.

 

But if you were to take a 48 key treble concertina, and switch the reeds and buttons around (you'd need new reeds for the lowest notes, but you would only need to switch the buttons around if they were coloured or otherwise marked A,B, etc), would you end up with a 48 key tenor concertina, or would you end up with a few bits of wood, leather, metal and bone fit only for the scrap heap?

[spindizzy]

.......

Basically it's matter of holding a larger, bit heavier instrument and just working on playing the little extra "hunk" of the keyboard down there.

 

Thanks Perry - it looks like you're working on all the questions that I've been asking myself about fingering.

 

And thanks for the other replies about on button layouts too.

 

 

Also, was just wondering, does a similar "problem" occur the other way with extended trebles?

I'm guessing that the stretch upwards would be a bit easier as compared with the need to kind of scruntch together one's fingers (mine anyway) at the lower end of a T/T,

 

I can't imagine playing anything that high! Bats would start falling out of the sky.

I have short stubby fingers and am currently plugging away at learning City of Savannah which goes up to Csharp (2octaves above middle C) and that's quite a stretch, I think I'd have to start leaving the security of the pinky rest to get any higher.

 

Chris

Edited March 28, 2007 by spindizzy

[JimLucas]

Also, was just wondering, does a similar "problem" occur the other way with extended trebles?

I'm guessing that the stretch upwards would be a bit easier as compared with the need to kind of scruntch together one's fingers (mine anyway) at the lower end of a T/T,

Not mine, though there is some change in the angles of my finger joints. Maybe the way you hold the instrument is different from what I do?

 

I can't imagine playing anything that high! Bats would start falling out of the sky.

Not really, of course, though most people do find it more acceptable if there are other, lower notes playing at the same time.

 

I have short stubby fingers and am currently plugging away at learning City of Savannah which goes up to Csharp (2octaves above middle C) and that's quite a stretch, I think I'd have to start leaving the security of the pinky rest to get any higher.

Interesting. I don't find it a stretch at all, and my fingers aren't exceptionally long. In fact, I often play the A-up-to-D run at the end up an octave on the last time through. That reaches one note higher than the C#, but I can also hit the D and octave higher (on my tenor-extended treble) without any trouble. In fact, I can play the entire scale from C-below-middle-C to the top G (4½ octaves higher) without moving my pinkies in (much less from) the "rests", and even with the bases of my palms resting against the ends ("below" the buttons), though I usually use my hands more flexibly.

[Leonard]

Here's the link to that single action tenor on Ebay.

Auction ended early.

[Dirge]

I think you did well to avoid a single action box, no matter how fast the action in the other direction. I wouldn't like to have to sneak in a whole lung-full of air every bar or two; permissible in an ensemble but a swine for a solo line.

[JimLucas]

Here's the link to that single action tenor on Ebay.

Auction ended early.

Lovely! I don't think I've ever seen a single-action Æola before. (I wouldn't be surprised if Chris Algar has, though.)

 

But it's odd that the Wheatstone ledger entry doesn't match Chris' description or photos. The ledger says that serial #29958 has 48 buttons, not the 43 pictured. Nothing in the ledger about single action or tuning in F, either, though the entry for serial #29953 does say "in F".

 

I think you did well to avoid a single action box, no matter how fast the action in the other direction. I wouldn't like to have to sneak in a whole lung-full of air every bar or two; permissible in an ensemble but a swine for a solo line.

I would bet that this instrument would be able to do far more than a bar or two before needing a new "breath". And the couple of single-action concertinas that I've been lucky enough to try have been able to gulp an entire "lung full" in the space of a grace note. The "gills" in the bellows make it possible to open even a bass astonishingly quickly.

[Robin Harrison]

...................here's a picture of the "gills' Jim refers to . This baritone bass, from approx 1905, is not just remakably responsive but actually plays like a quality treble.Wheatstone really knew how to do it. Robin

[spindizzy]

I have short stubby fingers and am currently plugging away at learning City of Savannah which goes up to Csharp (2octaves above middle C) and that's quite a stretch

Interesting. I don't find it a stretch at all, and my fingers aren't exceptionally long. In fact, I often play the A-up-to-D run at the end up an octave on the last time through. That reaches one note higher than the C#, but I can also hit the D and octave higher (on my tenor-extended treble) without any trouble. ...

 

Practice makes perfect ... it's getting easier :-)

and I think small hands may make reaching down for the low notes easier - a difficult theory to test without having adjustable hands!

 

Chris

ps in my case small hands means a span of about 7" (<19cms), a fingertip more than my treble concertina

[JimLucas]

ps in my case small hands means a span of about 7" (<19cms), a fingertip more than my treble concertina

Measured from where?

The tip of my middle finger is 7" from my wrist joint.

Measured from the cleft between that finger and the finger on either side, it's only 3-1/4".

[Graham Collicutt]

Here's the link to that single action tenor on Ebay.

Auction ended early.

Lovely! I don't think I've ever seen a single-action Æola before. (I wouldn't be surprised if Chris Algar has, though.)

 

But it's odd that the Wheatstone ledger entry doesn't match Chris' description or photos. The ledger says that serial #29958 has 48 buttons, not the 43 pictured. Nothing in the ledger about single action or tuning in F, either, though the entry for serial #29953 does say "in F".

 

I think you did well to avoid a single action box, no matter how fast the action in the other direction. I wouldn't like to have to sneak in a whole lung-full of air every bar or two; permissible in an ensemble but a swine for a solo line.

I would bet that this instrument would be able to do far more than a bar or two before needing a new "breath". And the couple of single-action concertinas that I've been lucky enough to try have been able to gulp an entire "lung full" in the space of a grace note. The "gills" in the bellows make it possible to open even a bass astonishingly quickly.

 

I am the culprit for ending the auction early. The serial no. should have been 28953.

 

The B flats and Bs will not swap over without surgery to the B slots as the B3 reed is at least 5 mm shorter. See attached with 2 reeds waiting to be put back in. I will leave it as it was made. All the D sharps are D flats.

 

 

It does play very fast and it doesn't use much air for the top 2 octaves; 8 bars of melody. I am getting used to finding the right place to gulp some air.

 

Graham Collicutt

Edited April 6, 2007 by Graham Collicutt