Anthony Cipolone Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 I just mounted a set of replacement bellows from David Leese on my Lachenal English and, now that I have air pumping through the box, am about to replace the pads and valves. I still noticed some significant air leaking, though I suspect it's from the old pads. I did, however, notice that one of the reed pans sort of wiggles in its place and doesn't have a real solid seal. I tried lightly scratching the chamois and, while it did help, it just wasn't enough. I'll admit, I got a teeny bit of glue on some spots from when I was mounting the bellows, but that was mostly on the edges and not the inside, and I was able to scratch those little bits off. It was suggested that this box might be from around 1870-1880, and to be honest, after that long (and not to my surprise) the chamois is looking kind of sad and very compressed in some areas where scratching didn't do much at all. Is replacing the chamois around the inside of the frame the only solution? I've also been looking for a glue to attach the bellows papers with. The Gloy glue gum (say that three times fast) that was suggested is apparently not available in the US. Any ideas? Would a regular ol' glue stick do? Thanks! Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Cipolone Posted December 15, 2006 Author Share Posted December 15, 2006 Darnnit. Posted it to the wrong forum ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 (edited) Darnnit. Posted it to the wrong forum ... I'll answer here, maybe one of the moderators will spot it and move the thread. Belows papers: I don't think stick glue would be satisfactory. I believe Gloy paste is based on Gum arabic. You need something with more moisture in it that gets the paper damp and supple and can accomodate attaching to a surface that is not completely flat. I've used wallpaper paste successfully. Chamois gaskets: even replacing the chamois may not be enough, it's quite possible that the reedpan has shrunk. Solution: peel up the chamois from inside the bellows frame and insert a shim made of a suitable thickness of card, glue the card in place, and glue the chamois back on top. You really need the same clear liquid gum here that you can't find for the papers. Don't use pva/white glue for this - you can even leave it unglued, the reedpan will hold it all in place. Edited December 15, 2006 by Theo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Coles Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 Topic moved - one of the few things I'm good for! Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d.elliott Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Gum arabic, gloy, works very well. I use nothing else and don't have a problem. its also easy to soften off and remove papers if you need to. The reed pan looseness, may be gasket but also check the reed pan support blocks, one or two may be missing or loose. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McIsog Posted December 18, 2006 Share Posted December 18, 2006 Anthony, Which bellows option did you buy and how do you like the quality? If you did the install yourself - how did it go? I'm a few weeks behind you on a similar chore. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Cipolone Posted December 18, 2006 Author Share Posted December 18, 2006 Anthony, Which bellows option did you buy and how do you like the quality? If you did the install yourself - how did it go? I'm a few weeks behind you on a similar chore. Dan I bought a set of 5-fold black bellows with papers, with the option to mount them to the frames myself. It went pretty well, considering I've never worked with leather before. I had a really hard time with the first couple steps, which involved setting them on the frames and cutting the end cards so they are 2mm from the edge of the frame -- I just couldn't get it squared off right. I reluctantly ended up eyeballing it, but it worked out just fine. The other hard part was wrapping the final binding, and I have some pleats that I'm going to try and fix this week. In two small spots, the leather didn't make it quite down to the gasket (the glue dried too fast!) but the difference is almost unnoticeable. Maybe .5mm or less. Overall, I'm quite impressed. I would suggest, if you have the extra money, to have them mounted by someone else, but I'm glad I had the experience doing it myself! As soon as I get the bellows papers affixed I'll post some pictures. - Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d.elliott Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 I bought a set of 5-fold black bellows with papers, with the option to mount them to the frames myself. It went pretty well, considering I've never worked with leather before. I had a really hard time with the first couple steps, which involved setting them on the frames and cutting the end cards so they are 2mm from the edge of the frame -- I just couldn't get it squared off right. I reluctantly ended up eyeballing it, but it worked out just fine. The other hard part was wrapping the final binding, and I have some pleats that I'm going to try and fix this week. In two small spots, the leather didn't make it quite down to the gasket (the glue dried too fast!) but the difference is almost unnoticeable. Maybe .5mm or less. Overall, I'm quite impressed. I would suggest, if you have the extra money, to have them mounted by someone else, but I'm glad I had the experience doing it myself! As soon as I get the bellows papers affixed I'll post some pictures. - Anthony What glue did you use? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Cipolone Posted December 21, 2006 Author Share Posted December 21, 2006 What glue did you use? Dave For mounting the bellows? PVA (Elmer's), as was suggested on the CD that you put together. And, by the way, nicely done on the instructions -- very clear to follow! For the bellows papers -- and I was about to e-mail David Leese about this -- I ended up finding what I believe is close enough to Gloy. It's called Memory Mount by api's Crafter's Pick, picked up from Michael's arts & crafts. The way they describe it, it sounds like it behaves the same way in that the glue will dissolve when wet. It's apparently used for mounting artwork. I did half of the concertina last night, and this morning it looks like it dried well and will hold okay. They sold gum Arabic in liquid form, but it said "For Watercolors" and looked too watery. - Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Cipolone Posted December 21, 2006 Author Share Posted December 21, 2006 Darnnit. Posted it to the wrong forum ... Chamois gaskets: even replacing the chamois may not be enough, it's quite possible that the reedpan has shrunk. Solution: peel up the chamois from inside the bellows frame and insert a shim made of a suitable thickness of card, glue the card in place, and glue the chamois back on top. You really need the same clear liquid gum here that you can't find for the papers. Don't use pva/white glue for this - you can even leave it unglued, the reedpan will hold it all in place. I tried your suggestion with lifting the chamois and slipping a shim in there -- it seemed to work great! Thanks! I think the problem is that the frame itself may have changed shape slightly. There's one spot where the bellows frame and the action box aren't exactly lined up. (You can see it here with the original bellows.) The gap between the frame and the reedpan was right around there, too, so it seemed to make sense to me. So far, so good. We'll see what happens. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McIsog Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 Anthony, Are the bellows frames lined up the same way on the new bellows - ie is the "R" stamped into the right frame on the same corner line as the stamp on the left frame mark "L"? I'm just guessing that perhaps when the new bellows were installed the frames got rotated a bit relative to where they used to be. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d.elliott Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 This miss-match in woodwork is not uncommon, often resulting in different woods shrinking (with dryness and age) at different rates, glue joints failing and some times the resultant misalignment is 'frozen' by subsequent re-gluing. If you look at the underside of the pad board you may well find an enlarged gap in the glue line between the pad board and the hard wood action box framework, can you confirm if this is true? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Cipolone Posted December 31, 2006 Author Share Posted December 31, 2006 If you look at the underside of the pad board you may well find an enlarged gap in the glue line between the pad board and the hard wood action box framework, can you confirm if this is true? Actually, there is a gap in the glue line ... on the opposite side of the concertina! Any suggestions on filling that gap? There are some glues that claim to be wood fillers, but I'm wary of what a label claims. I'll check for more leaks once the pads and valves are replaced; I finished replacing pads on one side, and in turn had a few springs break. Two were already broken, but just barely holding on, and the other two (I'm supposing) were just old and decided to go. After the pads and springs, I'll be adjusting the key height (some pads were thicker than others and threw it off a bit), and then move on to replacing the valves. I'm so looking forward to playing it. I figure by mid-January it should be all ready to go play. Refinishing isn't necessary, and I know it'll take awhile so I'll put that off until later. I'll throw up some pictures when all is done, though I'm a bit ashamed of my sloppy work mounting the bellows. Hehe. Happy New Years, btw! - Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d.elliott Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 There are various options. the objective is to make up for shrinkage in a structure that is in itself stable. If you try and move the framing around to close gaps (internally) or improve alignments (externally) you will end up with a kit of parts and bolt holes that will not line up!. options, subject to your own skill and value of the instrument In all cases rake out the old glue from the gap- and don't be concerned that you appear to be making the situation worse! option 1 a wood filler: either plastic wood, or a mixture of glue and fine sawdust made into a paste. dont be bothered about filling over the screw hole. compress the mix in tightly and keep finger prints off polished surfaces. option 2 card, pared to what ever tapers, and lots of wood glue. option 3 (my preferred method) soft wood shim, wood shaving, pared to fit, & wood glue in all cases, sand flat and re-drill hole through usually after 24 hrs glue glueing, and ensure that the pad board flatness is not affected. The obvious visibility of the misalignment shown in the picture in the link you posed above will be reduced by the fact that your new black bellows end wrap will fold over the chamoise by a mm and make the bright strip you can see dark and less obvious. The actual correction would be fraught with danger, but could have been improved prior to fitting the bellows. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 There are some pictures here on my website that illustrate Dave's prefered third method. Look at pages 5 to 9. I'd also recommend you choose the best glue for the job which is either hot hide glue, or Titebond Liquid Hide Glue. PVA/white glue is far from ideal for this type of job. As well as the usual caveats about its the non-reversibility of pva, its not the easiest to sand down to a smooth surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Cipolone Posted January 1, 2007 Author Share Posted January 1, 2007 option 3 (my preferred method)soft wood shim, wood shaving, pared to fit, & wood glue I'll give this a shot once I finish with the pads and valves later this week. And to Theo, thanks as well for the suggestion and the pictures. The obvious visibility of the misalignment shown in the picture in the link you posed above will be reduced by the fact that your new black bellows end wrap will fold over the chamoise by a mm and make the bright strip you can see dark and less obvious. The actual correction would be fraught with danger, but could have been improved prior to fitting the bellows. It actually is less obvious, visually. I didn't have as much leather to work with over that one spot as I hoped, but I did my best! Another bellows related question: some of the binding around the bellows frame is a bit lumpy. Since the glue has long since dried, is this something that can be fixed, or am I too late? Thanks again for all the help. You commented on my value of the instrument, and I'm considering it something I'll keep, but something I'll learn a lot with. Had I gotten a brand new concertina, I might never know the joy of cutting out bellows papers, or scraping old glue from a lever. I can only imagine the fun I'll have replacing valves. I think after spending so much time on this, I'll not want to get rid of it. Hehe. Glad to have y'all here for all my thousands of questions. Hope everyone has had a good New Years! Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d.elliott Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 If the bellows are glued in place, and the lumps are under the leather, then its a bit too late now, sorry Anthony. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Read Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 I just mounted a set of replacement bellows from David Leese on my Lachenal English and, now that I have air pumping through the box, am about to replace the pads and valves. I still noticed some significant air leaking, though I suspect it's from the old pads. I did, however, notice that one of the reed pans sort of wiggles in its place and doesn't have a real solid seal. I tried lightly scratching the chamois and, while it did help, it just wasn't enough. I'll admit, I got a teeny bit of glue on some spots from when I was mounting the bellows, but that was mostly on the edges and not the inside, and I was able to scratch those little bits off. It was suggested that this box might be from around 1870-1880, and to be honest, after that long (and not to my surprise) the chamois is looking kind of sad and very compressed in some areas where scratching didn't do much at all. Is replacing the chamois around the inside of the frame the only solution? I've also been looking for a glue to attach the bellows papers with. The Gloy glue gum (say that three times fast) that was suggested is apparently not available in the US. Any ideas? Would a regular ol' glue stick do? Thanks! Anthony Those old bellows didn't look too bad from the pics. Did you consider rebinding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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