Playing Double-octaves

[david_boveri]

i was wondering who plays in double-octaves. i play the anglo, but any discussion about doing so on the engilsh (which is probably easier, i'm sure) would be very interesting as well. is there a better term than "playing in double-octaves"?

 

how often do you do it? do you do it in d as well as g (i find c# a bit intimidating in two octaves)? do you use a separate fingering system for double-octave / single-octave? if not, did you tailor your fingering to be consistent?

 

as for myself, i dont do it too much, though i'd like to work on it more. when i think of it, i can do it and figure out a tune pretty quickly. however, i almost always stick to the g scale becaue c# is a bit of a headache (i used to not be able to do it at all, but now it i can but it is just annoying). i only have about 2 or 3 tunes that i can play full speed in double octaves, though not without the occasional mess up. it gets a little tricky when you get too high in the 3rd octave in the b parts of tunes, i usually have to "switch" positions up to get the 3rd octave a in faste passages. i switch into a different layout than i normally use. could anyone post their layout? i'll post mine when i get home and have more time.

[David Barnert]

I do this on the Hayden Duet occasionally, but on that instrument it's a no-brainer. The main reason for this response is to suggest an answer to:

is there a better term than "playing in double-octaves"?

I think many folks (certainly classically trained musicians) would refer to it as "parallel octaves."

[frogspawn]

My understanding is that Irish-style players use this only for some notes or phrases, but that Scan Tester played whole tunes that way. I was recently trying to get some feedback about the Scan Tester approach myself, as I personally find playing in parallel octaves easier than the English oom-pah style, but nobody commented on that aspect of my posting. I'm beginning to suspect from the lack of response that the Scan Tester approach may be regarded as too simple and pedestrian. I appreciate that the oom-pah style has more bounce for dance music, but I was thinking that the parallel octaves might be more fluid as a basis for song accompaniment.

[Chris Timson]

I play in octaves a lot. I haven't been doing so in public since my stroke a few years back left my left hand a little imprecise as compared to the right, but playing in octaves is a great co-ordination exercise, and I am gradually starting to re-introduce it into my public playing again.

 

To refer to it I often borrow an Irish term and call it double noting. I play a G/D anglo in the "English" style mostly, so I already put as much as possible of the melody on the right hand. I then just add the octave on the left. Ther interesting thing is I can't play melody on the left hand, my left hand follows the lead of the right. The one problem comes with the D/E button on the left hand, because the melody often goes onto that buttton and you have to play both notes of the octave with the left hand - possible but breaks the flow. With concertinas with > 30 buttons I have experimented with having one of the extra buttons on the right changed to D/E. This works well.

 

Two modern players come to mind for whom double noting is fundamental to their style: Harry Scurfield and our own Robin Madge (who I hope will reply to this thread). As well as playing superb English music in this style Harry also uses it to lead a Cajun band, Bayou Gumbo, on concertina rather than the usual melodeon. Double noting helps him get a sound closer (though not the same) to that of a melodeon, which suits his ends.

 

I think the style has a magic sound. Double noting doesn't sound like a melodeon in fact, because the two sides aren't exactly together, more like two instruments in duet. It is very satisfying to play when you get it right. The drive comes from the player, not the style, as always.

 

Chris

[Guest Peter Laban]

The older Irish style on the German cocnertina used a lot of octave playing. Dare I suggest Kitty Hayes as an example?

[Boney]

Does anyone play in three octaves at once? That's what I thought when I saw "double octaves" -- thinking playing in octaves would be playing notes an octave apart, so double would naturally be the octave below AND above the main note. I'll have to give it a try. On my slightly modified C-G 31-key anglo, I can play from middle C to the B almost two octaves above in the key of C. Or from G to that same B, a little over an octave's range, in G or D.

[Robin Madge]

When I first started to teach myself to play (not much opportunity for being taught in those days) I tried to play tunes using both hands, an octave apart, as that seemed the logical way to do things. It means that chords go in from what ever fingers you're not otherwise using, and as a by product gets you cross-rowing between the C/G rows early on (for a C/G box).

You do tend to stick with playing in C and G rather longer than you would playing right -hand only melody style, as you feel uncomfortable whan some of the notes aren't there!

I mainly play 40 button boxes but I'm usually only using about 25/26 buttons, and only two of these are not in the 30 button layout.

There are exceptions for one ar two odd tunes, and my wife keeps reqesting that I accompny her in Eb on the Bb/F! It gives a whole new feel to a tune when you're finding a new set of chords for it

 

Robin Madge

[Dan Worrall]

My understanding is that Irish-style players use this only for some notes or phrases, but that Scan Tester played whole tunes that way. I was recently trying to get some feedback about the Scan Tester approach myself, as I personally find playing in parallel octaves easier than the English oom-pah style, but nobody commented on that aspect of my posting. I'm beginning to suspect from the lack of response that the Scan Tester approach may be regarded as too simple and pedestrian. I appreciate that the oom-pah style has more bounce for dance music, but I was thinking that the parallel octaves might be more fluid as a basis for song accompaniment.

I too tend to play more an more in an octave style; I've learned a bit by listening to Scan Tester recordings, but mainly picked it up because I like the sound of it. Once one gets the knack of it...not hard, really, but it keeps your cross rowing much of the time...it becomes an easy and intuitive way to pick up a new tune, whereas an oom-pah approach takes me more time to work out and then memorize, especially if the tune is brisk in tempo. The extra volume helps in noisy settings, and the sound is much more full than a single note style.

When playing Irish music, however, I tend to go back to single note playing, occasionally adding in a phrase or two of octave playing for emphasis. Chris Droney is a superb example of doing that tastefully (his old 'Flowing Tide' album has many good examples).

[frogspawn]

I'm only a near-absolute beginner so shoot me down if I've got it wrong, but this is what I've found to be some of the main advantages and characteristics of the parallel octaves approach:

 

Assuming a C/G, playing across the rows on the left-hand buttons of the right-hand, and mentally regarding the melody as on the right with the left as an accompaniment:

 

1. It generally requires only the strongest fingers on the closest buttons.

2. When playing in C it avoids the awkward note run at the higher end of the right-hand encountered when playing along the row.

3. It eliminates the potential clash of bellows direction between melody and chords.

4. It should work well with modal tunes.

5. It requires moving down a button on the left hand when pulling, but this is very predictable once you're used to it.

6. Unlike the oom-pah approach, it doesn't require coordination of timing between left and right hands.

7. There are issues if the melody drops or goes very high, but I think that is an issue with all styles. If playing in C and the melody drops to G or A, these can still be double-noted. Is that what people do?

8. Playing C# in octaves looks doable, but I have only a 20-button Anglo so I can't try it.

9. As a beginner with very little time to spare I've found this style instantly accessible. It has a shallow learning curve which is encouraging. I can't do it very well but I can do it and I can spend the rest of my playing life improving on it. I'd like to learn the oom-pah and the Irish styles as well, but it's good to have a style that is easy to get into.

 

 

I too tend to play more an more in an octave style; I've learned a bit by listening to Scan Tester recordings, but mainly picked it up because I like the sound of it. Once one gets the knack of it...not hard, really, but it keeps your cross rowing much of the time...it becomes an easy and intuitive way to pick up a new tune, whereas an oom-pah approach takes me more time to work out and then memorize, especially if the tune is brisk in tempo. The extra volume helps in noisy settings, and the sound is much more full than a single note style.

When playing Irish music, however, I tend to go back to single note playing, occasionally adding in a phrase or two of octave playing for emphasis. Chris Droney is a superb example of doing that tastefully (his old 'Flowing Tide' album has many good examples).

[Chris Timson]

7. There are issues if the melody drops or goes very high, but I think that is an issue with all styles. If playing in C and the melody drops to G or A, these can still be double-noted. Is that what people do?

That's equivalent to the D/E button on my G/D. As I say in my post I still play it double noted (both notes on the left hand) but prefer if possible to have an extra D/E button on the right hand if possible. Such a button also helps with playing chordally as well.

 

Chris

[frogspawn]

Chris: Do you actually have an Anglo with that duplicate D/E button on the right-hand side? If so, where is it exactly? I presume it would be D push, E pull.

 

 

7. There are issues if the melody drops or goes very high, but I think that is an issue with all styles. If playing in C and the melody drops to G or A, these can still be double-noted. Is that what people do?

That's equivalent to the D/E button on my G/D. As I say in my post I still play it double noted (both notes on the left hand) but prefer if possible to have an extra D/E button on the right hand if possible. Such a button also helps with playing chordally as well.

 

Chris

[Chris Timson]

Chris: Do you actually have an Anglo with that duplicate D/E button on the right-hand side? If so, where is it exactly? I presume it would be D push, E pull.

That's right. I used to have a 45 button Jeffries with a D/E as the button at the top of the G row next to the G/F#, which feels very natural and also echoes the placing on my Anglodeon. I have a 38 button now, and unfortunately the reeds on that button are rather small, however Colin Dipper is researching the practicality of doing something with that button for me.

 

Chris

[Azalin]

Are you guys talking about playing whole tunes in octaves? I think as matter of taste, at least with irish music, you should play the octave as an ornament and thus use it only sparodically, or it defeats it's purpose. I would find a concertina player playing whole tunes in octave really annoying.

[Chris Timson]

I would find a concertina player playing whole tunes in octave really annoying.

Are you sure? Have you ever heard it?

 

I think you are faced with a simple choice: either compulsory re-education in the Concertina Gulags or get some Scan Tester on your ipod double plus quickly

 

Chris

[Azalin]

I would find a concertina player playing whole tunes in octave really annoying.

Are you sure? Have you ever heard it?

 

I think you are faced with a simple choice: either compulsory re-education in the Concertina Gulags or get some Scan Tester on your ipod double plus quickly

 

Chris

 

Hehe well when you listen to players like Micheál Ó Raghallaigh, Michael Rooney, Mary McNamara, Tim Collins, Claire Keville, etc, they don't play whole tunes in octaves and it's a choice they make, not because they can't. I'm sure they how could, but that would be very "cheesy" in my opinion.

[Azalin]

Oh and forget about Scan Tester, it sounds too much like an anti-virus lol...

[allan atlas]

Dear David: the Victorian tutors for the English concertina have many exercises that call for playing in octaves. . . . .mainly scales. . . . . .i provide one such example in my own CONTEMPLATING THE CONCERTINA: AN-HISTORICALLY INFORMED TUTOR FOR THE ENGLISH CONCERTINA, which can be had from the Button Box........Allan

[Chris Timson]

Hehe well when you listen to players like Micheál Ó Raghallaigh, Michael Rooney, Mary McNamara, Tim Collins, Claire Keville, etc, they don't play whole tunes in octaves and it's a choice they make, not because they can't. I'm sure they how could, but that would be very "cheesy" in my opinion.

So I was right, you haven't heard any music played in the style.

 

Chris