Happy Fourth Of July!

[Dirge]

It was smug jingoist claptrap Jim, almost certain to raise feathers pointlessly and i'm surprised that you couldn't see that.

[Woody]

Hi Jim,

 

I don't want to get into a long exchange on this, but as you quoted my post I feel I should at least respond.

 

I have not expressed my opinions regarding US policy in this thread, so I think it somewhat unfair to lead your posting with my quote. I just asked two questions which I'll expand on here (briefly)....

 

 

Alone?????

 

Of the fatalities in Iraq about 10% of those have come from 17 different non-U.S. national forces serving alongside the U.S.

 

Of the fatalities in Afghanistan about 20% of those have come from 12 different non-U.S. national forces serving alongside the U.S.

 

Islamic terrorism has struck in many countries in the world, killing citizens of even more countries. Any threat is not solely directed at the U.S.

 

 

The threat of a relatively small group of psychotic terrorists more serious than say WW2 or the Cuban Missile Crisis?

 

Just a simple question. Does the poster really think that this is the most severe threat that the U.S. has experienced in it's existence - given that there have been many in the past that one might think were greater? I hope he doesn't mind me saying but m3838 PM'd me with a decent argument why he thinks that this might be the case. I was just interested in the posters reasons for this viewpoint.

 

- W

 

Edited to add this additional note.....

 

the world's first successful democratic nation

 

Depends what you mean by democracy.

Depends what you mean by successful.

Edited July 6, 2006 by Woody

[Chris Allert]

since i am most likely the one most at fault for the direction this thread has taken, and since there have been so many posts here, i believe i owe a fuller explanation of why i posted what i did. i ask those of you who disagree with my action to consider what i have to say before passing judgement on me. before i continue, let me first assure you that i will not try to persuade you that my political views are correct and that you should accept them.

 

first here is what happened:

 

1. i saw that someone had posted a "happy fourth" message that had nothing to do with concertinas, with a few things about the ideals in the declaration of independence and the constitution and a request not to post anything political to this forum. i saw that the poster was from denmark, and it really wasn't clear to me what he was trying to say.

 

2. i saw that there was already one response saying "god bless you", which i also didn't entirely know the meaning of.

 

3. i posted a message stating in no uncertain terms what i thought of the united states this independence day.

 

why didn't i just respond privately to jim like he asked, or ignore the thread entirely? let me start with an analogous hypothetical situation, and then ask how you would respond.

 

suppose you visited concertina.net one day, and instead of it being the present day, we're in the height of the cold war. (susped your disbelief please... pretend there were web-sites back then.) suppose you are a red-blooded american, proud of your country and it's free enterprise system. now suppose that you believe the greatest menace the world has ever seen is the dark spectre international communism, specifically soviet russia. you know that this is a contentious issue, and you know that many other people on this forum may not agree, so you generally don't discuss it here since nobody else does.

 

now suppose the date is october 25, rather than july 4, and suppose someone posts a comment with a bright red head-line wishing everyone a happy october 25, and asking us to be thankful that the soviet union still stands, and that though it may not always be perfect, let us all reflect on the ideals of equality and the workers' struggle.

 

you see there aren't many posts yet, and you notice one from russia saying "thank you comrade!" or something to that effect. what would you do?

 

now suppose instead of a red-blooded american, you are a dissident living under soviet rule who has quite a different view of things than what the propoganda of your rulers might say. maybe you believed in a lot of the ideals of the revolution, but don't think much of stalin and those who have taken over. maybe because you're a soviet citizen, you believe even more strongly than the red-blooded american that the soviet union is the greatest menace the world has ever seen. so do you keep quiet or do you say something?

 

stepping back from the hypothetical, i am a native-born us citizen who thinks the united states is currently the greatest menace facing the world. i'm not going to apologize for this view or explain it here, but it is a deeply held belief which i think demands action. and i normally come here to take a break from that action, to pursue an interest that i enjoy.

 

so on july fourth i saw the post that started this thread, it looks like it was from a well-meaning european, but still, someone is commemorating the founding of what i believe is the greatest threat to the world today, and as an american dissident, i must protest in no uncertain terms. in my situation, would you have acted differently? i thought it was important to comment, because i thought there was a good chance that the thread would not be seen as "political enough" to be deleted.

 

like i said, you may not agree with my view, but once again i ask, if you held my view, would you refrain from speaking your mind in this thread after the topic was introduced?

 

forums free of politics are a luxury. we are all political and everything we do flows from our politics in some way. and usually there are spaces like this one where we can go to pretend this isn't so for a while. but sometimes politics just can't be avoided, and there's no easy rule for determining when that is.

 

jim, i believe you if you're saying you just wanted to have a political discussion outside this forum. i don't really know how you can live in denmark, where there were huge july 4th protests against us policy, and not think that at least a few people here would think you were introducing politics here and feel a need to respond in kind. but i am relatively new to this forum, so i am most likely not as good a judge of what is appropriate to introduce here as you are.

[Theodore Kloba]

...all feelings should be tolerated equally, even those with which we do not agree

Actually, no... Surveys have repeatedly shown that most people support freedom of speech only until they realize it also applies to those with whom they disagree.

[duckln]

 

We again are engaged, again alone, confronting probable 'our' most serious threat ever.

 

Alone?????

 

The threat of a relatively small group of psychotic terrorists more serious than say WW2 or the Cuban Missile Crisis?

 

God bless the British and others supporting those in this world who do not want to be force converted

or intimidated. God bless Churchill, Thatcher and Blair.

 

All countries are being invaded and slowly forced to accomodate their 'enemies'. What bothers

me is the billions that condone the tatics of these 'barbarians', and their stated objective.

[Theodore Kloba]

(susped your disbelief please... pretend there were web-sites back then.)

now suppose instead of a red-blooded american, you are a dissident living under soviet rule

In Soviet Union, web-site watches YOU!

 

(July 4, 2006 was also the 20th anniversary of the day Yakov Smirnoff became a US citizen.)

Edited July 6, 2006 by Theodore Kloba

[Trilby]

What I don't understand is why someone would state their views, as Jim does, on a platform that isn't political but not want anyone else to do the same? Some weird kind of free speech methinks !!!!

 

 

ps I don't think there is anything wrong with political discussion wherever it takes place ( I am a politics and International studies graduate) but sweeping generalisations tend to confuse matters.

 

May I point out as a point of history that in many respects the War of Independence was as much a civil war as that of throwing off the tyranny of the British. It was not, as is often portrayed, a rising up of a "united people". I don't think that has a bearing on the US today, eexcept for the tendency to rewrite history but we are all guilty of that.

[Mark Evans]

Well...we've sho' nuff had some fun, rattled a few sabers, made several points on a number of sides and perhaps hashed out this subject past hashin'.

 

I don't need to defend Jim for he would weigh in again were he a mind. He's an honest, thoughtful person and I consider him a friend whoose off-net exchanges are without guile and immensely enjoyable. Perhaps a few should have taken him up on the invitation.

[Trilby]

I have just reread my last post and I don't want you all to think I am arguing against the War of Independence. I am against all imperialism, be it political, cultural or economic.

 

So down with hegemony ! or we will all have to play the same music on the same instrument with the same tune and words. I certainly can never do any of those !

[Woody]

...we will all have to play .... the same tune and words.

 

I struggle to do this two times in a row at the moment - I'd be doomed

 

- W

Edited July 6, 2006 by Woody

[duckln]

Happy Fourth of July!

 

Americans celebrate July 4th with fireworks. I'm not sure why. Denmark -- and I think other countries -- uses fireworks to celebrate the beginning of the New Year. I like to think there's a connection there, though I'm not sure how many others think of it that way. I personally like the colored fireworks and would be happy to do without the noisy ones. I like the idea that even explosives can be turned to purposes of enjoyment, rather than warfare.

 

As I remember, the 'fireworks' is an re enactment commemorated in our National Athem,

"And the rockets red blare, bombs bursting in air". Few are uneffected by the display. The purpose

IMO is celebrate the seriousness of taking up arms to be free, and what being free has accomplished

in all of our lives.

[Woody]

What bothers me is the billions that condone the tatics of these 'barbarians', and their stated objective.

 

While undoubtedly there are many that do support the actions of these terrorists, do you really think that this runs into billions?

 

I think that most Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Taoists, Zoroastrians and most members of most other religions would say that such acts are against their faith. Add to that atheists, humanists, communists, socialists etc, most of whom would probably say these actions are unjustifiable, and I think you've covered most of the world population.

 

There is a danger that, through the horror we feel at such acts, and through the revulsion we feel against those that celebrate such acts, we misjudge how wide a support base these people have.

 

Hundreds of thousands? Certainly. Millions? Quite possibly. Billions? Probably not.

 

- W

[CaryK]

if there is going to be a fourth of july thread, i at least want to be counted among those who object to what my country is currently doing.

 

And be aware, Chris. There are many of us Americans, who are not apathetic, who are politically astute and aware, who don't share your views at all.

[jlfinkels]

Hey Mr Moderators!

 

How about creating a forum for topics that don't have a single bloody thing to do with concertinas? People could then go over there, argue to their hearts content about world issues, and leave the general forums just that, general.

 

If I wanted to hear this nonsense in a musical forum I'd stay over at Chiff and Fipple. I always thought this was a classier place.

[Dirge]

seconded.

[Woody]

seconded.

 

I can live with that

 

- W

[m3838]

/now suppose the date is october 25, rather than july 4, /

 

It's November 7th, the calendar shifted.

 

/and suppose someone posts a comment with a bright red head-line wishing everyone a happy october 25, and asking us to be thankful that the soviet union still stands, and that though it may not always be perfect, let us all reflect on the ideals of equality and the workers' struggle./

 

Excellent point. Excellent and Excellent point, funny and witty and all, but, unfortunately, incorrect.

4th of July is a birth (mythical) of a Nation. It is to be celebrated, just like my or yours, or Rich Morse's Birthday.

November 7th is an Anniversary of a revolt, which has nothing to do with the Nation. In Russian case, if I would send congrats on May 9th, the date Nazi Germany surrendered - this would be appropiate and is to be celebrated, especially amongst Germans. A bitter celebration indeed, but a date to commemorate nonetheless.

If I sent an invitation to celebrate the date English invaded Ireland, that'd be moronic. Etc.

Besides, let's be reasonable and not fantasize too far from reality.

When is Dennmark's Independence Day? And what Spaniards feel about it?

And why Danes murdered their Prince Hamlet? Despicable!

Edited July 6, 2006 by m3838

[greenferry]

Surveys have repeatedly shown that most people support freedom of speech only until they realize it also applies to those with whom they disagree.

LOL! You're absolutely right. I agree with the folks who suggested a separate forum be set up those who want to air their views on political topics. I thought there was an off-topic forum already (?); perhaps this one should move over to it if anybody wants to continue to stir the hash.