Playing A Cg Anglo In English Sessions

[frogspawn]

I know this topic has been discussed many times before but I'd be interested in a current straw poll of experiences. This is aimed particularly at anglo players in England.

 

I took a close look at some three English sessions during the Hastings Jack-in-the-green festival. One of them featured a lot of Irish tunes, the others were more mixed. As far as I could tell the overwhelming majority were played in D, while some were in G. I only saw one concertina, a 30 button anglo played in C. At this point the session became a solo with the exception of one other player, a guitarist!

 

(In contrast, there were plenty of melodeon players playing both English and Irish material on standard English DGs...)

 

So, if you want to play an anglo in English sessions, do you need a 30-button CG and play Irish style across the rows in D, or do you get a GD? There doesn't seem to be much opportunity for playing in C.

 

Richard

[PeterT]

So, if you want to play an anglo in English sessions, do you need a 30-button CG and play Irish style across the rows in D, or do you get a GD? There doesn't seem to be much opportunity for playing in C.

 

Hi Richard,

 

Well, I think that it really depends on the nature of the session. The local monthly one, which I host, can see us playing in C, D, G, A and a few minor keys. But it really depends on the mix of instruments present. Our regular melodeon player sometimes brings a C/F box in addition to G/D, so I'll let him know which box he needs before I start a tune. Another couple of melodeon players arrive late on, after Morris practice; they play G/D boxes, so they are the keys which we use at the end of the evening.

 

I play a 36 key C/G, and some tunes we play in C, with a fellow musician playing MacCann Duet. However, this tends to be done earlier in the evening when there are relatively few musicians, and it is more of a "tunearound" than "session".

 

If I went to an English session elsewhere, I would expect most tunes to be in G, D, or G/D, D/A. On a C/G box, this makes some of the fingering a bit more "interesting" (or challenging, depending on your view-point). The style of play is not Irish-style, but does go across the three rows to pick up the occasional C# and G#. The C/G box might not sound at it's best in this environment, but hey it's a "session", not a "concert", so it doesn't really matter. The good news is that you will generally be playing an octave higher than G/D Melodeon or Anglo players, so the sound does cut through. Note; you may have to juggle parts of the melody up or down an octave compared to any written source, if you want to keep most of the melody on the right hand.

 

My advice is always to go for a C/G, as it will stretch your playing for English-style tunes, and is the favoured system for most Irish musicians. 30 keys should be adequate, but 36 (Wheatstone/Lachenal) or 38/39 (Jeffries) give more options for repeated notes.

 

I have not had a G/D for almost 20 years, but do enjoy playing B'/F (see my tongue-in-cheek posting on 1st April).

 

Regards,

Peter.

[Jim Besser]

So, if you want to play an anglo in English sessions, do you need a 30-button CG and play Irish style across the rows in D, or do you get a GD? There doesn't seem to be much opportunity for playing in C.

 

I echo Peter T's comments. A G/D might be more convenient and allow for easier chords, but a C/G is likely to cut through the racket better than a G/D, unless it's like ALan Day's Jeffries.

[Chris Timson]

FWIW, my "sense" is that overall it's about 50/50 C/G to G/D anglo in English sessions playing English music. There are also plenty of Englishes and duets, too. Our own session seems particularly concertina-friendly, for some reason, and counts among its regulars 3 English players, 2 anglo players (1 G/D (me) and 1 playing both) and 1 MacCann player. We have recently "acquired" a Jeffries duet player, with a second as an occasional visitor. If Wrigglefingers starts coming regularly that will make a 4th English. Make of that lot what you will.

 

While my own preference is for G/D (and I have no problems making myself heard in sessions) the players of C/G instruments sound fine to my ears when playing G or D tunes. Whatever approach they are using it doesn't sound Irish, as you might expect if they are using an Irish style. It just confirms me in my perennial belief: you play the system you want to play and work out how to play the music you want to play on it.

 

Chris

Edited May 1, 2006 by Chris Timson

[Jody Kruskal]

Richard,

 

While Chris’ maxim ”you play the system you want to play and work out how to play the music you want to play on it” sounds reasonable, you may find it a long row to hoe. I just sat down and tried to play a bunch of well known English dance, session and morris tunes in their standard keys on my C/G Anglo. You should note that I’m playing them in what might be termed the “English” style with full chords and harmony.

 

Some of the G tunes worked pretty well but most required alteration. The D tunes were very hard to do and required surgery. The A tunes were beyond me totally. As Peter pointed out, these alterations mean jumping octaves, playing melody in the left hand (along with the chords) and also creative rewriting or simplification of the melody. Not impossible to do, but somewhat limiting. If you only play melody with a chord note here and there and are willing to play melody in both hands then your C/G box will take you far. In my experience, fully chorded tunes are much more likely to work when played on a G/D Anglo.

 

My G/D preference for English tunes also holds for American, Canadian, Breton, Swedish, Scottish, Irish etc. I think that it has to do with the range of the fiddle or more globally, with the range of pleasing melody pitches in general. This is about from A below middle C to the A two oct. above that. Anything much higher starts to require fiddlers to play up the neck in higher positions, not may folk musicians do. Also those higher notes sound pretty squeaky in a melody. Lower than A below middle C and the notes start sounding soft or muddy when used in a melody. I think that this is just the physics of the human ear and our perception of sound. Most melodies tend to center themselves in this range, just like the right hand of the G/D Anglo.

 

There are a few great tunes that I would not like to play on the G/D. Some (not all) tunes in A major and tunes in C, Bb, F, E, Dm, Gm. These tunes account for about 2% of what I’ve come across, on both sides of the Atlantic.

[Brian Peters]

If you only play melody with a chord note here and there and are willing to play melody in both hands then your C/G box will take you far. In my experience, fully chorded tunes are much more likely to work when played on a G/D Anglo.

Well put, Jody. As a C/G player I do find the challenge of joining in English music sessions a good learning experience as Peter describes, but it does mean playing the instrument against my normal grain (which is why I usually find myself playing G/D melodeon at sessions). You have to be very lucky to find a tune in either G or D in which the notes fall predominantly under the right-hand fingers and leave the left hand free for chording. Playing an octave high is the obvious option in G, but not much help in D, and also the fingering in D is less logical so it's not easy to busk an unfamiliar tune even without chords. In fact you might well finding yourself having to vamp along vaguely rather than playing the notes. So generally if someone hasn't yet settled on their instrument I would advise those whose regular preference is to play the "English" style in sessions, to go the G/D route. Incidentally, E minor isn't that easy to play with chords on a C/G anglo either, although A minor isn't too bad if you use the pushed A note on the left hand top row as your key note.

 

The other alternative is to seek out a "C session", which is favoured in some East Anglian parts where the melodeon players (e.g. Katie Howson) play four-stop one-row in C.

Brian

[Larry Stout]

The session I usually play in is largely led by penywhistle players, with a strong preferance for G and D tunes, though we also play a lot of A dorian jigs. If we play in other keys they either have to half hole or change to a different whistle.

 

The ECD literature uses a wide variety of keys (not a lot of D minor, which I'd like for viola d'amore, but still quite a range). Scottish country dance tunes often use A major and there are many in Bb, F, and even Eb. There are some nice O'Carolan tunes in G minor.

 

I usually play either fiddle or English Concertina where this variety of keys just requires that I learn where all the notes are. If I played a C/G anglo I'd probably limit the keys I played in and I might want a D/G to give more options. (Besides, we all need excuses for yet another instrument!)

 

One of my recent favorites is Bigg Market Lasses (off a CD "Border Directors" by the Northumbrian group Blue Moon Band)--it seems to have been written to show off the chromatic capabilities of Nothunbrian smallpipes (but also works well on EC). It uses all of the notes on a chromatic scale from B natural to G--clearly not a tune for fiddle or whistle!

[Chris Timson]

While Chris’ maxim ”you play the system you want to play and work out how to play the music you want to play on it” sounds reasonable, you may find it a long row to hoe.

A very nice turn of phrase. I should just point out that I wouldn't expect a C/G to sound like a G/D anglo on English tunes in G or D, any more than I would expect it to sound like an English concertina. But I've never considered that particularly relevant. My "maxim" is really a special version of the general statement, which reads: "Choose the musical instrument you want to play and work out how to play the music you want to play on it”. The sound you are aiming for with a particular musical instrument should be appropriate to the music; it need not sound like some other instrument, nor should it be criticised if it doesn't.

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

If you only play melody with a chord note here and there and are willing to play melody in both hands then your C/G box will take you far.

So if you have a C/G box but not a G/D, then why not play the way Jody has just described? Unless you're the only one at the session who is able to play chords... but how likely is that?

 

Fiddlers play English tunes without simultaneously putting in a lot of chords. While that might not be the usual style for English anglo players, it can still be made to sound like "English" music. And if there are two anglo players and a tune on which it's awkward to play both melody and chords at the same time, then one of you could do just the chords and one just the melody. Division of labor.

 

Just one potential solution, of course.

 

My G/D preference for English tunes also holds for American, Canadian, Breton, Swedish, Scottish, Irish etc. I think that it has to do with the range of the fiddle or more globally, with the range of pleasing melody pitches in general. This is about from A below middle C to the A two oct. above that. Anything much higher starts to require fiddlers to play up the neck in higher positions, not may folk musicians do. Also those higher notes sound pretty squeaky in a melody. Lower than A below middle C and the notes start sounding soft or muddy when used in a melody. I think that this is just the physics of the human ear and our perception of sound. Most melodies tend to center themselves in this range, just like the right hand of the G/D Anglo.

Jody, that may be your perception, and it may even be the "average" perception, but be careful about suggesting that it's universal. Among other things, while nearly everyone's high frequency hearing tends to gradually diminish with advancing age, women generally tend to be more sensitive to high frequencies than men at all ages. I would expect this to have an effect on their perception of what is a "pleasing" range for a tune, as well.

[Jody Kruskal]

women generally tend to be more sensitive to high frequencies than men at all ages. I would expect this to have an effect on their perception of what is a "pleasing" range for a tune, as well.

 

I've never thought about it quite that way before, but perhaps that explains why there are so few female basses and baritones in the choir.

[Robin Madge]

I know that my wife would much prefer to play an octave lower than is considered normal as she does not like the sound of the higher part of the concertina.

If she wants me to teach her a tune I have to sing it to her, not whistle it. If I whistle she can't distinguish the notes anything like so well.

 

Robin Madge

[JimLucas]

I know that my wife would much prefer to play an octave lower than is considered normal as she does not like the sound of the higher part of the concertina.

If she wants me to teach her a tune I have to sing it to her, not whistle it. If I whistle she can't distinguish the notes anything like so well.

Is she the exception that proves (i.e., tests) the rule? Or is it just individual variation, or that "sensitivity" shows itself in different ways?

 

One female friend of mine finds music with significant bass parts uninteresting, because she can hardly hear even heavy bass. Another is able to hear the "chirping" of bats, and suffered physical pain from a computer monitor's whine that I couldn't even detect, but turned from playing the fiddle to playing electric bass. I guess her hearing is good at both ends of the spectrum.

 

And a male friend says he plays a baritone English concertina because he is unable to hear the high notes of a treble.

[Chris Timson]

Fiddlers play English tunes without simultaneously putting in a lot of chords.

Small point of information. Depends on the fiddler. Double stopping is very commonplace in English fiddling.

 

Chris

[stuart estell]

women generally tend to be more sensitive to high frequencies than men at all ages. I would expect this to have an effect on their perception of what is a "pleasing" range for a tune, as well.

 

I've never thought about it quite that way before, but perhaps that explains why there are so few female basses and baritones in the choir.

 

 

Though it doesn't account for the fact that some of the best tuba players I've met have been women...

 

The other alternative is to seek out a "C session", which is favoured in some East Anglian parts where the melodeon players (e.g. Katie Howson) play four-stop one-row in C.

 

I've never heard of these but they sound really appealing, and not just from the point of view of convenience for a C/G instrument. Brian, are the tunes that get played at a C session the sort of things that you'd expect to crop up at "normal" sessions, or do they have their own repertoire?

[Chris Timson]

I've never heard of these but they sound really appealing, and not just from the point of view of convenience for a C/G instrument. Brian, are the tunes that get played at a C session the sort of things that you'd expect to crop up at "normal" sessions, or do they have their own repertoire?

I've only been to one or two such sessions, but going by those many East Anglian tunes have moved out into the general repertoire, only shifted to G. They mostly have that distinctive "music hall" sound that I associate with the East Anglian repertoire.

 

Chris

[Brian Peters]

The other alternative is to seek out a "C session", which is favoured in some East Anglian parts where the melodeon players (e.g. Katie Howson) play four-stop one-row in C.

I've never heard of these but they sound really appealing, and not just from the point of view of convenience for a C/G instrument. Brian, are the tunes that get played at a C session the sort of things that you'd expect to crop up at "normal" sessions, or do they have their own repertoire?

Well I'm a long way from East Anglia and not really the expert, although I seem to remember "C sessions" at National Folk Festivals in years past. My guess is that they would have a repertoire derived from East Anglian musicians like Oscar Woods, Percy Brown or Billy Bennington, but you might well find familiar things like "Walter Bulwer's Polkas" adapted for C instruments as well. I'll be seeing a mate of mine on Thursday, who's into one-row and goes down for the East Anglian Traditional Music Trust sessions, so I'll ask him.

Brian

[frogspawn]

Thanks to all for the replies so far which I have read with interest. I have enough self-knowledge to recognise that I'm never going to be a great musician or even a particularly competent one so I'm looking for easy options. Searching for accidentals all over the keyboard doesn't sound like one of them! I even find chords hard when the melody slips below the right-hand buttons. At the moment I'm looking at the styles of Scan Tester and William Kimber, i.e. based on playing in unison in C across the C and G rows as I understand it. Now, if you wanted to adopt that style and play in sessions where most of the tunes are in D, then it would seem to point towards a D/A concertina, rare though these may be. At the moment I only have a 20-button C/G which I think will be fine for song accompaniment which is my main current purpose for having concertina, but when it comes to sessions it might be better to dust off my melodeon...apologies if that causes offence!

 

Richard

[Brian Peters]

I even find chords hard when the melody slips below the right-hand buttons.

Nothing to be ashamed of, Richard, that is hard.

At the moment I'm looking at the styles of Scan Tester and William Kimber, i.e. based on playing in unison in C across the C and G rows as I understand it.

I suggest that you search those names on this forum and look up some of the previous comment on those two players' styles. Kimber certainly played chords, not unison (and wasn't afraid of playing in G either!).

Now, if you wanted to adopt that style and play in sessions where most of the tunes are in D, then it would seem to point towards a D/A concertina, rare though these may be.

Yes, they are rare, and it would make life a bit more difficult when the session goes into a G tune. Even on your 20-button C/G I do suggest you explore the second row fully, which is where you'd need to go to play in D on a G/D.

when it comes to sessions it might be better to dust off my melodeon...apologies if that causes offence!

I think you'll find that you're not the only one in these parts who moonlights on melodeon!

Brian