Ian Chandler Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Hi. I recently bought an old Lachenal 20-button concertina for restoration. It's a pretty standard instrument, serial number 61859, but underneath the bass side reed pan is a paper sticker saying "J. Bellingham * Music Warehouse * Bentham". beneath that, handwritten, is the date 11.3.85 and a number - either 10 or 70. I know that the current datings for Lachenal anglos is based on 5 known dates. This appears to disagree with one of them, though it makes more sense of the existing "curve". I'm wondering if the 1895 date for No. 51480 could possibly be wrong (I note that Wes Williams has this number starting the year 1890). Any ideas? Thanks Ian Chandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Coles Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Hi. I recently bought an old Lachenal 20-button concertina for restoration. It's a pretty standard instrument, serial number 61859, but underneath the bass side reed pan is a paper sticker saying "J. Bellingham * Music Warehouse * Bentham". beneath that, handwritten, is the date 11.3.85 and a number - either 10 or 70. I know that the current datings for Lachenal anglos is based on 5 known dates. This appears to disagree with one of them, though it makes more sense of the existing "curve". I'm wondering if the 1895 date for No. 51480 could possibly be wrong (I note that Wes Williams has this number starting the year 1890). Any ideas? Thanks Ian Chandler My impression is that there are far more than 5 known dates for Lachenal anglos...the Lachenal articles here on C.net are significantly out of date and probably need a heavy disclaimer appended to them. Chris Algar, Wes Williams, Randy Merris, Stephen Chambers (and others? do I have the right persons here, folks?) are collecting data and plan to eventually document it publicly, as I understand. Like all volunteer efforts (e.g. running this Web site) it progresses as circumstances permit, and I for one will gratefully await that time. Wes may chime in with specific comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wes williams Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 ... I know that the current datings for Lachenal anglos is based on 5 known dates... My impression is that there are far more than 5 known dates for Lachenal anglos... ... Wes may chime in with specific comments Thanks Ian & Ken, I suspect Ian is using an old article by David Aumann (pre 2001) for these '5 known dates' - which were only estimates. In the hope of getting something near the truth, the date estimate methodology has been changed from a graphical/point approach to a date-range approach, and some number/date ranges from the Lachenal work were published just over a year ago in this thread, based on repair marks and dealer labels. It took me a long time to find it again, because it was on the Instrument Construction & Repair Forum, so I'll republish in this forum, updated with Stephen Chambers' data: 1..1500: 1862-1864 1500..3200: 1862-1867 3201..25200: 1862-1878 25201..44700: 1872-1878 44701..46999: 1876-1878 47000: 1878 47001..51000: 1878-1881 51001..80600: 1878-1887 80601..92000: 1881-1887 92001..140500: 1885-1896 140501..144400: 1895-1897 144001..152600: 1895-1918 152601..172000: 1897-1918 172001..187400: 1904-1918 187401..196800: 1904-1927 196801..201100: 1926-1933 So 61859 fits into the date range 1878..1887, which includes the 1885 marked date. Apart from 47000/1878 (the approx date/number of the trade mark appearing) the table uses only after/before dates, and this instrument will add another 'before' date, as the date written could be a repair mark: 51001..61900: 1878-1885 61901..80600: 1878-1887 The thread also explains why there is still no update, but I'm trying to make a full one this year! ..ww Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Old Leaky Posted March 25, 2006 Share Posted March 25, 2006 Where, exactly, does one find the serial number? I have a 30 key C/G Lachenal Anglo (pictured as my avatar) and can't readily see one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Chandler Posted March 27, 2006 Author Share Posted March 27, 2006 Where, exactly, does one find the serial number? I have a 30 key C/G Lachenal Anglo (pictured as my avatar) and can't readily see one. First off, if it's ALL there, there'll be a small paper label visible from outside on the bass side with it on (the treble side has the Lachenal sticker in the equivalent place). If not, you'll have to take it apart. The serial number is stamped into the wood of both reed pans and the bellows. :-) Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Old Leaky Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Where, exactly, does one find the serial number? I have a 30 key C/G Lachenal Anglo (pictured as my avatar) and can't readily see one. First off, if it's ALL there, there'll be a small paper label visible from outside on the bass side with it on (the treble side has the Lachenal sticker in the equivalent place). If not, you'll have to take it apart. The serial number is stamped into the wood of both reed pans and the bellows. :-) Ian No paper label to be seen but finally got it opened (courtesy of Theo Gibb) and reassured in that same number appears 3 times - 141930. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fidjit Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 ... I know that the current datings for Lachenal anglos is based on 5 known dates... My impression is that there are far more than 5 known dates for Lachenal anglos... ... Wes may chime in with specific comments Thanks Ian & Ken, I suspect Ian is using an old article by David Aumann (pre 2001) for these '5 known dates' - which were only estimates. In the hope of getting something near the truth, the date estimate methodology has been changed from a graphical/point approach to a date-range approach, and some number/date ranges from the Lachenal work were published just over a year ago in this thread, based on repair marks and dealer labels. It took me a long time to find it again, because it was on the Instrument Construction & Repair Forum, so I'll republish in this forum, updated with Stephen Chambers' data: 1..1500: 1862-1864 1500..3200: 1862-1867 3201..25200: 1862-1878 25201..44700: 1872-1878 44701..46999: 1876-1878 47000: 1878 47001..51000: 1878-1881 51001..80600: 1878-1887 80601..92000: 1881-1887 92001..140500: 1885-1896 140501..144400: 1895-1897 144001..152600: 1895-1918 152601..172000: 1897-1918 172001..187400: 1904-1918 187401..196800: 1904-1927 196801..201100: 1926-1933 So 61859 fits into the date range 1878..1887, which includes the 1885 marked date. Apart from 47000/1878 (the approx date/number of the trade mark appearing) the table uses only after/before dates, and this instrument will add another 'before' date, as the date written could be a repair mark: 51001..61900: 1878-1885 61901..80600: 1878-1887 The thread also explains why there is still no update, but I'm trying to make a full one this year! ..ww Hmmm! That makes mine numbered 132970 much older than I thought 92001..140500: 1885-1896 I'd been given to believe that mine was from around 1914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 I refer to this thread 24 button Lachenal AC on eBay, With some history This concertina, serial number 102720 and tuning date of 1 July 1893, has it clearly in the date range 92001..140500: 1885-1896. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wes williams Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 (edited) ..This concertina, serial number 102720 and tuning date of 1 July 1893, has it clearly in the date range 92001..140500: 1885-1896. Thanks Steve, I don't often look at the buy and sell forum, as I'm too poor and already have enough instruments , and as I've replied recently in another thread, Randy Merris is doing all the hard work on harvesting number info. Its very nice to find something that seems to confirm the estimates. Fidjit: Are you 100% sure of your number? If you've only read the label, then look again very carefully, as they are often not what they appear to be on first glance, and we've all made mistakes reading these numbers. Also remember that the second hand market for instruments was very strong, so is it possible that the history you were given could have referred to this? Can you tell us a bit more about what you were told? Edited December 24, 2008 by wes williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fidjit Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 (edited) Fidjit: Are you 100% sure of your number? If you've only read the label, then look again very carefully, as they are often not what they appear to be on first glance, and we've all made mistakes reading these numbers. Also remember that the second hand market for instruments was very strong, so is it possible that the history you were given could have referred to this? Can you tell us a bit more about what you were told? Number 132970 (2 could be an 8) is on the left hand end, but it's just a piece of paper really. I guess anyone could do that) I'll have a look inside the next time I have to go inside and get back to you. Bought for £50 from Neil Wayne at '72 Cambridge Festival. Out of tune. Refurbished by Chris Agar '93. When I asked Wayne in '72, how old he said ca 1914. Chris said much the same. Other label right hand end. Reads. The Peerless Anglo German - Manufactured by - LACHENAL & CO. - Specially for - JOH. MC MURDOCH& Co. Ltd Bit more authentic this one. Edited December 24, 2008 by fidjit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marien Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 (edited) About the 24 button concertina on ebay, again, the note was in the bag, not in the concertina. The information in the listing is no proof for dating the concertina. Edited December 24, 2008 by marien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wes williams Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 About the 24 button concertina on ebay, again, the note was in the bag, not in the concertina. The information in the listing is no proof for dating the concertina. The seller says quite clearly ' BITS TO BE GLUED BACK ON' which implies that they were originally attached to the concertina. So I'm quite happy to accept this date as a 'before'. Besides, where else would it be likely that someone could have obtained such things? ...When I asked Wayne in '72, how old he said ca 1914. Chris (1993) said much the same... Other label right hand end. Reads. The Peerless Anglo German - Manufactured by - LACHENAL & CO. - Specially for - JOH. MC MURDOCH& Co. Ltd Bit more authentic this one. A quote from Stephen Chambers on this thread: "THE PEERLESS" was a registered Trade Mark of the large firm of John G. Murdoch & Co. (number 37,884, applied for on 5th June 1884), and their concertinas were built for them by Lachenal & Co. I'm sure both Neil and Chris would say that they gave you the best guess available at the time. But research has moved on a bit in the last few years, and I don't think either would now disagree with an earlier date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fidjit Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 I'm sure both Neil and Chris would say that they gave you the best guess available at the time. But research has moved on a bit in the last few years, and I don't think either would now disagree with an earlier date. Gets better and better. Thanks. Don't want to go inside before mid January as I've some wassailing prior to that. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marien Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 The seller says quite clearly ' BITS TO BE GLUED BACK ON' which implies that they were originally attached to the concertina. So I'm quite happy to accept this date as a 'before'. Besides, where else would it be likely that someone could have obtained such things? You are right, the seller says 'bits to be glued back on'. You may have more recent information that would make sense to the date and the number, so if it confirms that, that is fine to me. My remark on the side is just that concertina bags and cases are often swapping content, and it is not impossible that the bag has been the home of an older concertina. If you check what is offered on ebay regularly, aren't there lots of wheatstones offered in lachenal cases? and the other way around? If there are more concertina's in a house, the best case is often used for the best concertina, and the one that used to live in there may be the one that the bits to be glued back belonged to. For example, I recently bought a very nice concertina, it came in an old bag. I gave it a better case, took it frmo another concertina, which now lives in the bag. The old bag may contain bits and pieces belonging to the other concertina. Take this as you want. There must be more dated concertina's and if this one fits in, there is no reason for the doubt I had. I am very interested to read an updated story of the lachenal dating information people are working on. Best wishes, Marien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wes williams Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 Don't want to go inside before mid January as I've some wassailing prior to that. Don't rush, as you aren't going to get a better date unless there is a repair mark inside - and they aren't very common. I can tell you that 140871 (not a Peerless) is accompanied by a sales receipt for Oct 1895, so thats how the top end of the number range comes about, and the bottom end has to be 1884 from the trade mark. The lowest Peerless is around 99,300 and the highest 151,300 - but I've discounted a ca. 28,000 Peerless report as a misread, probably because the number has been misaligned when glued in place, and it perhaps should read 127,xxx. You may have more recent information that would make sense to the date and the number, so if it confirms that, that is fine to me. The original date information in this thread comes from a database of around 1250 anglos. The anglo reported by Steve fits into the data, and gives us the possibility of refining the range 92001..140500: 1885-1896 into 92001..102500: 1885-1893 and 102501...14500:1885-1896. Not really much of a change, but each refinement gives us a slightly better guess ( and I emphasize that its only a guess) on the true age of a Lachenal concertina. And again, we need to be very careful when interpreting anything, as the seller just says 'cloth bag', which doesn't necessarily mean that its a concertina bag, although it could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marien Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 You may have more recent information that would make sense to the date and the number, so if it confirms that, that is fine to me. The original date information in this thread comes from a database of around 1250 anglos. The anglo reported by Steve fits into the data, and gives us the possibility of refining the range 92001..140500: 1885-1896 into 92001..102500: 1885-1893 and 102501...14500:1885-1896. Not really much of a change, but each refinement gives us a slightly better guess ( and I emphasize that its only a guess) on the true age of a Lachenal concertina. And again, we need to be very careful when interpreting anything, as the seller just says 'cloth bag', which doesn't necessarily mean that its a concertina bag, although it could be. Hi Wes, In addition, I asked the buyer and he replied that the note was inside the concertina, not in the bag. Hence, the date mentioned refers to the same concertina. Marien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fidjit Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Ah! Just spent a very pleasant hour and a half taking photos of my tina inside and out. Yes the number on the outside corresponds with the number on both end of the inside. So here's what it looks like. Left hand end with number Reed pan with number I'll come back with more photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fidjit Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Moe pics R/H end with Lachenal label Think the sytem only allows me to upload one pic at a time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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