Is This Going To Get Me Into Trouble?

[greenferry]

My hands are small and my fingers can't reach the low notes if I hold the English concertina in the standard manner, with the pinky finger in the finger rest.

 

I did what came natural and anchored my pinkies on the wood (see picture).

 

Is this going to get me into trouble once I start playing? I am wondering if any of you have the same problem and how you get around it. Is it okay to not put pinkies in the finger rests?

 

Also, it's easier for me to play it when I have the buttons rotated a little (diagonal instead of horizontal), at least when I'm sitting down with it. Am I going to wind up with problems down the road if I continue to do it like this?

 

(Took the pic with my cell phone! First time I ever tried it!)

 

 

 

[Mark Evans]

Is this going to get me into trouble once I start playing? I am wondering if any of you have the same problem and how you get around it. Is it okay to not put pinkies in the finger rests?

 

 

 

 

No, it's not going to get you into trouble and yes it is okay not to put the pinkies in the finger rests. Folks do what works mostly. There is a thread on this very subject. Someone more competent than I will most likely chime in with the link. The fun has begun!

[JimLucas]

I did what came natural and anchored my pinkies on the wood.

 

Is this going to get me into trouble once I start playing?

Since I just suggested in another thread (talking about playing while standing) that you should use the finger plates, I will quickly say that I don't believe in hard and fast rules, and what you are doing is not necessarily a bad thing. (It might even be a good thing.) But what seems easiest at first isn't necessarily the best in the long term.

 

I hope I'll have time tomorrow to be more specific.

[greenferry]

I did what came natural and anchored my pinkies on the wood.

 

Is this going to get me into trouble once I start playing?

Since I just suggested in another thread (talking about playing while standing) that you should use the finger plates, I will quickly say that I don't believe in hard and fast rules, and what you are doing is not necessarily a bad thing. (It might even be a good thing.) But what seems easiest at first isn't necessarily the best in the long term.

 

I hope I'll have time tomorrow to be more specific.

 

 

Waiting with bated breath ... now you have me wondering!

[malcolm clapp]

If you ever get the chance to hear and watch Scottish player Simon Thoumire on the English, and the results achieved, I'm sure that it flies in the face of all traditional methods of holding the instrument. Hard to describe, but the fingers are almost along the rows rather than across them. He uses all 4 fingers and ignores the little finger plate completely. Has to be seen to be believed.

 

MC

[Samantha]

If you ever get the chance to hear and watch Scottish player Simon Thoumire on the English, and the results achieved, I'm sure that it flies in the face of all traditional methods of holding the instrument. Hard to describe, but the fingers are almost along the rows rather than across them. He uses all 4 fingers and ignores the little finger plate completely. Has to be seen to be believed.

 

MC

His CD with pianist David Milligan is called "The Big Day In" - fantastic music-making!

Samantha

[Henrik Müller]

...

I did what came natural and anchored my pinkies on the wood (see picture).

 

Is this going to get me into trouble once I start playing? I am wondering if any of you have the same problem and how you get around it. Is it okay to not put pinkies in the finger rests?

...

Allright! A (good) can of worms. A can I have comfortably lived in for quite a while.

 

I have small (old) fingers, my little fingers are small, and around 2001-2... I found that I was getting pains in them, pains in the joints. I also realised I wasn't always using the pinkie rest, sometimes just placed the pinkie and, if possible, the ring finger on the metal end, like your photo.

 

Cutting a long story short: I bought a Stagi miniature, played it a while, and then (brutally) modified it, until it felt good:

 

 

 

(It has been modified a bit more = "real", comfortable thumb straps).

 

The important stuff here it the addition of a hand strap and a handrest - the latter is tilted at an angle (about 17 degrees). The result is that I play slightly across the rows - again like your photo. I'll see if I can come up with a photo of my hands, playing.

 

I am very, very comfortable playing this way - I can get low (though there isn't anything to press at the Stagi miniature ) and I can do the cross-fingering and all the "illegal" stuff necessary for me to play Irish music.

 

I should stress that this is in no way "the right way to do it" - what is comfortable for one person can be useless for another. But this works for me.

 

A note about the thumb straps: they are placed so that my thumbs go all the way through - contrary to when I play my Wheatstone, where I "carry" the instrument on the first part of the thumb. It seems to work like this:

 

With pinkie rests: my thumbs are just inside the straps (and I was getting thumb pains as well)

Wihout rests and with a handrest that encourages playing at an angle: the thumbs can go all the way through and thus carries the instrument better. Not that that is so important here - the Stagi is ridiculously light.

 

Take a look at this man:

 

http://www.simonthoumire.com/gallery.htm

 

See? Playing at an angle across the rows...

 

Needless to say, the concertina I am attempting to build, is based on this idea.

 

/Henrik

[JimLucas]

If you ever get the chance to hear and watch Scottish player Simon Thoumire on the English, and the results achieved, I'm sure that it flies in the face of all traditional methods of holding the instrument.

I don't know about "flies in the face" (which to me implies combat), but it is different, and I understand there are a few others copying that style, now.

 

Hard to describe, but the fingers are almost along the rows rather than across them.

That is an ambiguous statement, because people mean different things by both "rows" and "direction of fingers", as this Topic demonstrates. But that Topic also eventually clarifies what is meant, even though it doesn't establish a single "correct" terminology. Here is another relevant Topic. And here is Simon's own description of what he does and how he came to do it. Interestingly enough, some of what he says seems to contradict (in part) things others of us (myself included) have said in describing his technique. Also, I believe that what he calls "rolls" are rapidly repeated notes without any of the separating grace notes that are used in what most Irish musicians call "rolls".

 

He uses all 4 fingers and ignores the little finger plate completely. Has to be seen to be believed.

The above links also include some photos.

 

[Edited to correct small typo.]

Edited December 9, 2005 by JimLucas

[Animaterra]

Does this mean you have a concertina, Barbara???

[Henrik Müller]

...

And here is Simon's own description of what he does and how he came to do it.

...

YES!!! Thanks, Jim - I have read it before and was looking for it for my answer, but couldn't find it (or find time to find it )

 

/Henrik

[greenferry]

I'll see if I can come up with a photo of my hands, playing. /Henrik

 

Henrik,

 

I saw some of your posts before when you were beginning to modify the Stagi, but didn't see this one. What a great idea!

 

When I first picked up the instrument and tried to hold it like the instructions say you're supposed to, I just couldn't play the lower end like that at all. In fact, for me, it would be much better if the thumb strap were about half an inch back, and maybe at a slight angle. But it would make a lot of holes in the instrument, and I'm not that far long yet, so it doesn't seem to justify trashing up the concertina just for that half inch. I don't think I will ever use the pinky rest at all, in fact if I were building one I'd just leave it off.

 

If you do come up with a pic of you playing your modified instrument, I'd be interested to see exactly how it's done.

 

Has anybody else modified either the finger rest, or the thumb strap, on an English?

[greenferry]

If you ever get the chance to hear and watch Scottish player Simon Thoumire on the English, and the results achieved, I'm sure that it flies in the face of all traditional methods of holding the instrument. Hard to describe, but the fingers are almost along the rows rather than across them. He uses all 4 fingers and ignores the little finger plate completely. Has to be seen to be believed. -- MC

 

 

Malcolm,

 

Yes, I've read so much on here about Simon Thoumire that I've ordered some of his CDs. I heard a couple of MP3s on the Internet, and he seems pretty amazing. I like his freestyle thinking, too.

[nils]

If you feel that you have too little control without the pinkie try english wrist-straps. They ad a lot of control and dynamics on the pull. I keep them very loose to have my wrist as far away from the concertina as possible.

 

 

Nils

[greenferry]

Here is another relevant Topic. And here is Simon's own description of what he does and how he came to do it. ... The above links also include some photos.

 

 

Jim,

 

Thank you for pointing to the relevant posts with the discussion of the pinky grip (I like Rich Morse's term!) (I never did see an answer to Rich's question, what do Brits call the "pinky finger?"). Goran's research on the use of the pinky grip is really enlightening. In theory, the pinky grip seems to have a logical purpose; however, in pratice, it doesn't seem to serve the styles of many contemporary players in the mode for which it was designed.

 

What I found most salient was the comment by Goran:

 

"It can be seriously questioned however if the finger plate is useful at all since the option including the fourth finger in actual playing activities is an essential additional advantage and also because any immobilization of the fourth finger inevitably reduces relaxed activity by other fingers. ... It seems to me as if the initial introduction of the finger plate in fact was an unfortunate mistake, which may have held back development of the instrument as well as progress of playing technique." [Emphasis mine]

 

It's good to know that it's not going to ruin my playing if I don't stick to the rules, and don't use the pinky grip .

Edited December 8, 2005 by greenferry

[greenferry]

Does this mean you have a concertina, Barbara???

 

<GRIN> Yep! I luckily was able to obtain a gently used Morse Albion treble. However, I'm still thinking about the Morse baritone, and I'm thinking I will go back once again to The Button Box to lust over it, and put down my deposit. The Morse Albion really suits me to a "T." It is feather light, and a beautifully handcrafted instrument. I like the looks of it as much as the feel, and the sound is absolutely mellow and lovely, with excellent bellows response and key action, everything I'd hoped for. I especially like the cherry wood ends, and the finish is a nice soft color (the bright pictures of it on the Web somehow make it look kind of "red," which is unfortunate, because it's a subtle, dark cherry hue). I am very happy with it! <GRIN>

 

 

If you feel that you have too little control without the pinkie try english wrist-straps. They ad a lot of control and dynamics on the pull. I keep them very loose to have my wrist as far away from the concertina as possible. -- Nils

 

Nils,

 

The wrist-strap seems like a worthwhile idea. Did you mean "Anglo wrist-straps," by any chance? I didn't know that wrist-straps existed for the English, except for the novel strap devised by Henrik (see picture above on his post). I can certainly see how a strap over the wrist would help stabilize the instrument and allow more bellows control. But it would involved drilling more holes into the instrument, and I'm not ready to do that just now. So I will see how it works out with resting my pinky on the wood behind the pinky grip.

[Mark Evans]

Did you mean "Anglo wrist-straps," by any chance? I didn't know that wrist-straps existed for the English, except for the novel strap devised by Henrik (see picture above on his post).

 

 

Barbara, there are wrist straps for the English. If you feel no need, then don't worry. I wouldn't dream of drilling any holes in my Albion either.

 

I'm glad you brought up that bit about the red color the Morse concertinas have on the Button Box Website. I've seen a lot of them, but never experienced that almost neon color. They are beautifully made instruments. Welcome to the family. What number is it?

Edited December 8, 2005 by Mark Evans

[BruceB]

Hi Barbara,

I wouldn't worry about your pink.......oops, little finger position. I always moved mine around. It spent most of it's time in the rest, but it sometimes came out if that made it easier to grab the low buttons or a chord. I even press a button with it on rare occasions.

I wouldn't consider altering the concertina for several months. It's going to take a while for you to feel comfortable.

Just a wild guess on the number, but is it by any chance Albion number 077? If so, I've seen and played that one. It's really nice and has a sweet tone. Felt like it had been carefully played in and taken excellent care of. I even think the tone might have mellowed just a bit compared to a newer one; say like Albion 277.

bruce boysen

[greenferry]

I'm glad you brought up that bit about the red color the Morse concertinas have on the Button Box Website. I seen alot of them never experienced that almost neon color. They are beautifully made instruments. Welcome to the family. What number is it?

 

Mark,

 

Right. All the Morse's I have seen are the lovely subtle cherry hue, and not the vivid "red" that displays online. When I saw the picture on the website, I didn't think I would like one that color. But when I saw the real finish, I just loved it! Cherry is my favorite kind of wood.

 

I got a lucky number: 077

 

Edited December 8, 2005 by greenferry