Learning From Anglo Tutors - One Or Many?

[dwinterfield]

I'm new to the concertina and have been playing the whistle for a couple of yrs. Over the years I've dabbled with several instruments, none successfully. I did however learn to read music and have some basic knowledge of how it works.

 

I don't know of any active anglo instructors in eastern Mass at the moment so I expect to start the concertina from books, while listening to a lot of ITM concertina cds.

 

I have picked up (thank you ebay) books by Bert Levy, Frank Edgley, Michael Bramich and dvds by John Wliiams and Niall Valley and others.

 

I'm in everyone's first chapter. I see that they take different appoaches. Edgely says home position is the G row. Levy says the C row, and so on. Different books seem have different areas of emphasis.

 

So should I pick one book and stick to it or hop from one to another or approach them sequentially or what? As a middle-aged beginner, without an instructor, the ideal situation would be to pull the best from each book and integrate them in a way that works for me and makes good music. The worry is that I'll unknowingly glom on to every book's bit of bad advice and in a years time have a muddle of bad habits.

 

I'm comfortable with complexity, so I'm not worried about becoming overly confused. While I'm sure some of all books have flaws, I'm new so they all just seem like fun to me.

 

I'm thinking that I'll look for a concertina camp next year.

 

Suggestions welcome.

 

By the way. I can't resist a comment about the long recent thread discussing music theory and traditional music. I don't know enough music to have a theory and the only tradition I grew up in was 1960s rock with good helping of folk music and some C&W. I don't have any particular musical talent, but I love it. I'd love to play by ear but it's a very slow process for me. Reading music lets me know what the notes are but doesn't tell me how they should sound or how the music feels. That comes from hearing the music. If I couldn't read music, I wouldn't be playing and if I wasn't playing, I don't know if I'd be listening. For me playing music is like many of the other good things in life. Everyone has to find their own way to get there. I have great respect for the musical insight that comes with growing up in a rich musical tradition but I didn't come in that door. I don't think it's helpful evalute all the paths to any kind of music. Better to just listen, and maybe play a little.

[Ritchie_Kay]

I jotted down some notes on this on a web-page (see link below).

You are right Niall Vallelly and Mick Bramich follow the same basic method which is very different to the one that Frank Edgley follows. There is a vociferous discussion that goes on about which is better which doesn't have a conclusion. I did a class with Michael O'Raghallaigh who seems to follow the same approach. Other top players seem to follow the second approach - so I don't think there is an answer. You might find one of them suits you better. It is probably best in any case to get comfortable with using all of the buttons. I followed Mick Bramich's book at first and very rarely used the left hand Grow. I had to correct this later because sometimes you need it...

[m3838]

Hate to say it, but it does look like it depends on the style you'd be more likely to play the most (phew, what a phraze).

If it is irish (this site is oriented 90% Irish) - follow those books that teach mostly irish.

I'd say, Berthram Levy's book is very good and proven. If he says - "C row", follow it and stick to one tutor. Both G and C are home rows.

As you get better, you'll find yourself in G-home or in other note-home.

You'll use left and right, on the push as tonic and on a pull as tonic. Whatever you stick with the first 6 months - is temporary.

The other note, that comes from experience. learned the hard way is not to stick to any tutor (or teacher) for too long. If you feel bored with it - drop it dead. I'd say, no more that 3-6 months, or you become a slave.

I've been a slave for 4 years!

[Ken_Coles]

For the adult who comes to concertina in mid-life without tons of other musical experience, I would say it is important to pick one method and stick to it for a while, like six months of steady playing. Few students, in my experience, can progress faster by mixing many methods than they will be starting one way. Even better is to start with, and stick with, one teacher, but few of us can do that. I know Noel Hill and Fr. Charlie Coen both welcome complete beginners, and I suspect others do also.

 

Even in Irish music there are multiple approaches, all successful, so you can't divide up fingering methods merely by genre. In the end most expert players I know have and use a variety of fingerings.

[Guest Peter Laban]

I remember walking into the shop where this guy from Marcus concertina was selling his stuff during the Willie Clancy week. Kitty Hayes had been in the day before to try a D/G box. He was giving out 'that woman can't play the concertina at all, she had all the fingerings wrong'. 'She plays nice music though' I suggested but he wouldn't have it, it was 'all wrong'.

 

Noel Hill is prone to seeing his own way as the only right one too. In reality though I think you're best off learning the way that suits you best. My son started off with Edel Fox, is with Noel Hill now but has taken occasional classes with Hugh and Ernestine Healy, Aoife Kelly, Michelle O Sullivan and others and each of them have taught things of which at least one of the others would say 'never do that'. Yet, these things may suit in some circumstances and are therefore worth having.

 

By the end of the day what suits a tune best, what makes it really shine is the only thing that should matter in this. There's no point in rigidly sticking to the one thing and declaring it 'right' and all other ways 'wrong'.

 

The point was to me maybe best illustrated by Yvonne Griffin (who is very high up my list of favourite concertinaplayers) who told me once that she and her sister had been playing for years (and quite lovely too I imagine) but that it was Noel Hill who opened up a whole new realm of possibilities on the concertina for them by showing them how to playacross the rows. Yet Yvonne (or likewise her sister Lourda) does not sound like Noel Hill at all, she plays very very nice music indeed, the technique and approach, coming to her from different directions, serves her music.

 

Ken above makes sense though: don't start doing it all at once at the outset.

Edited November 30, 2005 by Peter Laban

[JimLucas]

In reality though I think you're best off learning the way that suits you best. My son started off with Edel Fox, is with Noel Hill now but has taken classes with Hugh and Ernestine Healy and others and each of them have taught things of which at least one of the others would say 'never do that'. Yet, these things may suit in some circumstances and are therefore worth having.

 

By the end of the day what suits a tune best, what makes it really shine is the only thing that should matter in this. There's no point in rigidly sticking to the one thing and declaring it 'right' and all others 'wrong'.

Different approaches work for different people, not just in learning concertina, but in learning itself. While I agree that for most beginners it's probably unwise to try learning several styles at once, it might be worthwhile to spend a week each with various tutors as a way of deciding which seems to suit you best... THEN settle down with that one and carry it through to the end. Then you might feel like trying another... or not.

 

For those who have trouble making such evaluations, just pick a tutor at random -- or on the advice of others -- and go through it, but switch if you find that it really isn't working for you.

 

Those who have developed a familiarity with their instrument might want to try what I will call the "hologram" approach, superimposing lots of individual bits -- pieces, or even pieces of pieces -- to develop their own personal preferences and style, which may or may not match someone else's. (There may even be a few beginners who find this a comfortable way to learn.) There are even people who can learn multiple styles and keep them separate, like some of us can switch between anglo and English. (Many people who speak more than one language learned them one at a time, but I know several who grew up in households where they were exposed to two or more languages from birth, and it didn't impede their learning of either.)

 

I'm reminded of an artist friend, who signed up for every figure drawing class at the art school she attended. The administration told her she had to pick one teacher. She said that if they insisted, she would pick another school. As she put it, "I'm not here to learn how to imitate one teacher or another, but to learn to draw, to become the best artist I can be. I can only do that if I can learn as many techniquess as possible and develop in my own way. I'm paying you to help me learn. If you won't do that, I'll go pay somebody else who will." She eventually got her way, and I must say that I feel she did some of the best work -- both realistic and fantastic -- that I've ever seen. That's my ideal. You have to decide for yourself whether it's yours.

 

I dare say that whether they had one teacher, many, or none, every one of the in-demand performers and teachers on concertina has their own style, one which is not exactly like that of any of the others, or of their teachers. But since this Topic was created to ask about learning for a beginner -- concertina beginner, though not music beginner -- I suggest reviewing what I said above and deciding which bits apply to yourself.

 

One more thing: Whatever style you learn, whether your own or someone else's, when you attend a camp or class by someone else you must be prepared to abandon it and accept the instructor's dictates at least during the course. And then, like it or not, you'll notice and compare the differences and start developing your own judgements and style.

 

My own approach, for what it's worth, is that there is no single "home" position, and that the notes are "where you find them". The C and G rows are handy at times when playing in those keys, but I don't think of them as "home", and I often play the same note in more than one row (all three for G and A) even in the course of a single tune in one of those keys, either for ease of fingering and bellows control or for rhythmic emphasis. As an example of the latter, to individually emphasize three successive D's I may do the 1st and 3rd in one bellows direction and the middle one in the opposite direction. Have I added enough to the confusion?

[dwinterfield]

Have I added enough to the confusion?

 

Absolutely!!

 

This is a very useful discussion. Does anyone know of teachers of anglo concertina and Irish music that are taking beginners in eastern Massachusetts?

 

If I don't find a teacher and knowing my own instincts, I'll likely graze over all the books until I come upon a tune I really like, and can play, and will stay with that book for a while.

[Mark Evans]

[i'll likely graze over all the books until I come upon a tune I really like, and can play, and will stay with that book for a while.

 

Sounds like a good plan to me. As for teachers here in Eastern Mass, I don't know. Certainly others in our area will pipe in.

[Dan Worrall]

For the adult who comes to concertina in mid-life without tons of other musical experience, I would say it is important to pick one method and stick to it for a while, like six months of steady playing. Few students, in my experience, can progress faster by mixing many methods than they will be starting one way.

 

Those are wise words, in my humble view.

 

Over the years, I've had time to mess around at length with several of the tutors you mention, and will give you a bit more specific advice on which to choose (neck fully extended). It is of course best to learn from a real person, so get to a workshop if you can. But in isolation, your choice of tutor should depend, in my opinion, on what type of music on the anglo inspires you, and where you want to go with it.

 

If you like Irish music, but tend toward the older players (ie, everyone who started recording before Noel Hill made his first album) or otherwise like an older style steeped in tradition, I would go for Frank Edgley's tutor. It features an along-the-row technique closely adapted from the playing of Chris Droney.

 

If you like newer Irish styles, such as Noel Hill or almost anyone young who started recording after he came along, or if the quest for speed and technique are at the top of your list, you might go with one of the other Irish tutors on your list (Bramitch, Vallely, Williams); also seek out a free download of Simon Wells' anglo tutor, which addresses cross row technique in nice detail (but after you work on the basics a bit). I agree with those who say cross row fingering is useful and inevitable; these skills are useful beyond Irish music.

 

If you are a generalist in your musical taste...you want to play a little Irish music, a little American, a little English....and wish a thorough introduction to the wide range of experience offered by the anglo, you could do no better than Bertram Levy's tutor.

 

If you want to play in the English harmonic style (chords on the left, melody on the right), and want to learn to play some of the stuff you've heard on the Anglo International CD, choices are a bit limited, and the value of a real live instructor comes to the fore. If you start from scratch in isolation, you could start with the three articles written in the '70's by John Kirkpatrick on how to play the anglo (download them for free from his website). The instructions on chording (in part three) are very good, but the basics are covered too briefly for a beginner. I would spend some time with Bertram Levy first, and then go on to JK part 3. Once you have covered those, you would do well to go to Roger Digby's superb "Faking It" article on how to build chords on the anglo, available for free on concertina.com.

 

If you are captured by the simplicity of the twenty button, and still wish to play chords, there are other avenues. The 1850's tutor by Minasi is really excellent, and shows how surprisingly rich chords can be on the twenty button. It and an even earlier tutor by Hoeselbarth are available for free on concertina.net. I understand that Alan Day has written and posted a twenty button tutor, but have never been able to download it. If you are snagged as I was by the superb twenty-button skills of William Kimber, you could check out my book on his playing, available at EFDSS, the Button Box, and the Morris Ring shop. The chording in his playing is different from modern usage in the same way that there are older vs newer styles in Irish playing.

 

Now if Scan Tester is someone you wish to emulate, playing a straightforward, un-fancy but captivating belt-it-out style with English and music hall tunes, you need to learn straightforward octave playing. No tutor here, but (again, if you are a beginner) you could start with Edgley's tutor for the basics, which has a section on octave playing. Then it's all up to you...but get a copy of Reg Hall's book and CD "I never played to many posh dances".

 

Finally, if your goal is to play for a Salvation Army brass band (probably not in this century!), there are some quite interesting anglo tutors for this, which instruct on playing two fisted chords, and yet with no melody (the better to hold your own against trumpets and trombones!). Check out concertina.com in coming months; some of us are working on that.

 

When I started playing in the early seventies, none of the above options were available (even the ancient books were buried in libraries, 'undiscovered'). Count yourself lucky...there is a wealth of material out there to get you started!

Edited November 30, 2005 by Dan Worrall

[JimLucas]

If you want to play in the English harmonic style (chords on the left, melody on the right), ... I would spend some time with Bertram Levy first, and then go on to JK part 3.

 

... I understand that Alan Day has written and posted a twenty button tutor, but have never been able to download it.

I believe you can get Alan's excellent tutor by contacting him directly (he's a Concertina.net member), and it's definitely an excellent resource for that style.

[Alan Day]

As Jim mentions my Tutor is still available free of charge and is mainly an introduction to English style.

It has not been professionally made and is a copy of a cassette I recorded for a friend some time ago,but it does explain how I went about getting my left hand working with right hand.Dr David kindly wrote out the music which can be downloaded from my site(just click on my name and it will come up).Alex Jones kindly sends these out from his home in the USA to reduce my costs and it was he who made the cassette into a CD.

Our only request is that you let us know how you get on.

As Dan mentions if you want to listen to styles of play first before you make up your mind have a listen to "Anglo International" many names mentioned on this site are featured on that three CD set.

Al

[Michael Eskin]

As both a Uilleann piper and Anglo Concertina player, I have to say I am a great fan of Noel Hill's fingering system to allow me to put what I do on the pipes onto the concertina.

 

I first started on the anglo learning from the available book tutors since there are very few local concertina players, learning a fairly legato style with emphasis on longer single direction runs. It took me a few months to retrain my brain around Noel's fingerings, as at first they seem non-intuitive, and can be more demanding then the legato techniques because of the rapid bellows changes often required. I've completely embraced his techniques, as they allow me to produce the sort of music and phrasing I couldn't achieve with the previous legato oriented fingerings. But what works for me may or not work for others, just sharing my experience.

[Lars]

Hi,

I'm also fairly new to concertina. I bought every book available as I was in the same spot as you. I wanted to learn Irish style and found the Edgley tutor to suit me the best. I initially started with the Wheatstone tutor that's free on the web, it was a good way to get going and starts you on the C row, then the Edgley tutor which is on the G row as others have said. I also got the Bramich book for the tunes, I think that one is well done also but a different approach. For the videos I like the one by John Williams the best although I have a hard time sitting at my computer and learning from a video.

The thing I liked about the Edgley tutor is that he gives you the full versions of several tunes with all the embellishments added. It gives you a good idea on how to approach the tunes within a particular style which I like.

I didn't 'click' at all with Bertram Levy's book or Niall Vallely's video although both are very fine players. Good luck and have fun!

 

Lars

[geoffwright]

Sit in on workshops with as many different tutors as you can - you will find it infuriating as you try and unlearn everything you have done since the last workshop, but hopefully something of everyones different technique will sink in.

Learn to play various bits of a tune in different techniques to work out which is easiest. You don't have to use only one method for all of the tune.

Work towards learning scales in either direction. Just a few notes at a time will help phrasing (provided you want to play across the rows).

[bill_mchale]

So far I like everything everyone has written. As one who is mostly self taught on the concertina (except for a week under Father Charlie's instruction in the Catskills last year), relying mostly on Bramich's and Edgley's books and the Mad for Trad CD-Rom and what I have learned of the music from several years of playing the button accordion I think it is safe to say that there is no one right way to play Irish Concertina Music. If you want to play like Noel Hill, then go to Noel Hill, likewise if you want to play like some other specific person. That being said, my goal is to play Irish Music on the Concertina like Bill McHale, not like Noel Hill, Tim Collins, Chris Droney, Edel Fox, Michael O... well you folks get the idea . Pick a basic fingering system that works for you (Mine is loosely based on the C row but there are quite a few notes that usually (though not always) get played on the G row) and then start to liberally steal.. er... borrow any embelishment, way of phrasing, etc from any concertina player that you like... oh yeah do the same for flute, fiddle, box players etc. The last part might be the hardest, which is figuring out how to tastefully add these elements to tunes to develop an authentic Irish playing style that is all your own .

 

BTW, of the tutors I have tried. I like the Mad For Trad CD-Rom as a starter, easy to use and it allows you to both see and hear the tunes and ornaments. Frank Edgley's tutor has some good sections on ornaments that I like. Bramich's book is strong in the detailed approach he takes to the various keys... but it is weaker in terms of embishments. My best teachers though are not concertina players (or not primarily concertina players)... but rather the amazing Irish Musicians in Baltimore.. a couple of them are session regulars and listening to them play gives me an amazing sense of the way the music should be played... then I just have to go home and figure out how to do it .

 

--

Bill

Edited December 2, 2005 by bill_mchale

[Ashkettle]

For Irish music, I've always preferred the older musicians so Edgley's tutor would seem to be the ideal one for me. However, with the size of my hands and fingers, I find it uncomfortable to be playing primarily on the G row. I feel much more comfortable playing on the C row and moving to G and the Accidental row for additional needs.

 

Basically, I've adapted some styles to what suits me. I'm currently using more of a mixture of Edgley's style of approach, but on the C row (and using Bramich for some flexibility). Where I'll end up is all conjecture, but I'm starting (and barely) to get the feel that I want out of the basic melody (the right amount of bounce, etc).

 

Of course, my ornamentation abilitys are still severely lacking, but it's not the destination, it's the trip that's fun.

 

I still admit a fascination with Levy's tutor though. His use of chording and octave playing intrigues me.

 

BAH!

[Alan Day]

I agree that you get as much information from as many sources as you can,tutors,Cds,live performances.You then decide on the type of music you enjoy and wish to play, take from

the information you have and formulate your own style of playing.The tutors are only kickstarts into playing the rest is down to each individual.

Al