D/g Anglo

[groeswenphil]

Hi,

Anybody help?

At the tender age of 50, I've finally got around to doing something that I wanted to do years ago....join a Morris side.

This has been a steep learning curve. Despite loving Morris tunes and having worked on them for years, I'm experiencing a lot of frustration

 

1) Sometimes, a tune that I know by a certain name is known by another name by the other musicians in the side.

2) Sometimes they play a tune that I know really well in say G major, but they play it in E minor.

 

I could go on.

 

Another thing...and I should have said this earlier, is when playing for Morris I usually play button melodeon, however, I'm just as good playing Anglo.

Now, another thing that I notice when playing melodeon is that frequently, the other musicians play different chords to the ones I'd normally play....which means that I usually end up just playing the tune.....which leads me to think that I'd be better off playing concertina anyway.

 

Now, my concertina is a C/G model. Now, when I play in C, I can usually add a lot of accompaniment chords.

However, I've never got the hang of doing this in the key of G.....also, whenever I try, I find I'm playing some really high notes.

 

So.....and this is where I get to the point of the query.....should I buy a D/G Anglo for Morris work?

At the moment, I fancy a simple 30 button....probably a Lachenal. I think I'd need a really bright sound......

or, is there a way to play my existing Anglo in the key of G more effectively?

 

Phil

[Jim Besser]

So.....and this is where I get to the point of the query.....should I buy a D/G Anglo for Morris work?

At the moment, I fancy a simple 30 button....probably a Lachenal. I think I'd need a really bright sound......

or, is there a way to play my existing Anglo in the key of G more effectively?

 

A difficult question I am still answering for myself.

 

I have spent 5 years as solo musician for a Morris side using a C/G.

Initially, I slavishly learned everything in G or Em, thinking that was proper form for Morris. Later, I realized that key doesn't matter unless you're playing with others, so I now play in whatever key works best -- ie gives me the greatest latitude for emphatic chording.

 

What I have also learned is that many melodeon players play chords for convenience, not sound. Often they are the wrong chords -- and I don't mean wrong in the sense of not the commonly used ones, but chords that just sound bad with the melody. As an old rhythm guitar player, I strive for chords that work with the notes.

 

Often, when playing with others for mass dances, I find my chords overwhelmed by the clashing chords of the melodeons.

 

So getting a G/D will not fix the problem of playing with melodeons, unless the ones around you are a whole lot more conscious of "good" chords than the folks around here.

 

Recently I acquired a Morse G/D to go with my dipperized Lachenal C/G. I really enjoy the little Morse and find it eminently playable. When I want to play in G on something like Highland Mary or Bonnie Green Garters for mass dances, it makes it easier to chord in the key favored by the other players..

 

But for my primary side, as a solo musician, I prefer the C/G for its more penetrating sound. Part of that is the superior quality of the instrument, but part, also, is the higher pitch.

 

I have also worked hard to maximize chording on G tunes on the C/G, mostly through a lot of experimentation.

 

For me, the solution appears to be have both a C/G and a G/D and to move back and forth, as appropriate..

 

On the issue of confusing tune names: you just have to learn the versions used by your side. We use a version of I'll Go and Enlist that appears in no notation; it's just been handed down from musician to musician. I 've wanted to change it because the B part sounds lousy, to my ears, but it goes with the dance. We use a version of Haste to the Wedding that bears absolutely no resemblence to the version I've played for years.

 

The rule is, the dancers decide. If it works for them, they can call the tune anything they want.

 

And I started playing Morris after 50 and survived.

 

Hope this isn't too rambling to be helpful.

Edited October 23, 2005 by Jim Besser

[Chris Timson]

I largely agree with all of that, though my experience is as a musician for North West morris, rather than Cotswold. The norm in North West is for large bands (in our case 6 musicians) whereas I have always thought that the fewer musicians playing for Cotswold the better! (You must have at least one, of course, unless your side likes humming (quite a few morris sides hum, especially when they take their shoes off)). Anyway, for me the Morse G/D anglo is almost the the perfect morris instrument as it is so light you can play it standing up for hours (important when playing for processionals), and virtually all the tunes we play are in G or D.

 

Melodeon players actually have more chords at their disposal than they usually realise -you could always try shouting at them!

 

Chris

[Jim Besser]

I largely agree with all of that, though my experience is as a musician for North West morris, rather than Cotswold. The norm in North West is for large bands (in our case 6 musicians) whereas I have always thought that the fewer musicians playing for Cotswold the better! (You must have at least one, of course, unless your side likes humming (quite a few morris sides hum, especially when they take their shoes off)). Anyway, for me the Morse G/D anglo is almost the the perfect morris instrument as it is so light you can play it standing up for hours (important when playing for processionals), and virtually all the tunes we play are in G or D.

 

I also play for a NW side, as well as a Cotswold group. At practices with the NW ladies, I usually play solo and I switch instruments and keys to provide maximum sound . In an upcoming performance, I'll be playing with a melodeon player, and i'll probably play the Morse G/D, since he likes to play in G and we'll be standing.

 

YOu're right, the Morse is unmatched for playing standing up and while processing. It's amazing lightness was a major factor factor in my decision to buy it. I have not been at all disappointed by either its playability or its sound.

Edited October 23, 2005 by Jim Besser

[Paul Read]

Is there information out there on the relative weights of the new concertinas (i.e Morse, Edgley, Norman etc.). Are there any other factors that would make one preferable to the others (e.g. Loudness, responsiveness)

[Frank Edgley]

If you're interested, you can hear me playing one of my G/D instruments on the "Anglo International" collection, tracks 3 & 5 CD #1. This is a wooden ended instrument and is lighter than my metal-ended ones.

[Jim Besser]

Is there information out there on the relative weights of the new concertinas (i.e Morse, Edgley, Norman etc.). Are there any other factors that would make one preferable to the others (e.g. Loudness, responsiveness)

 

A little thread drift here, but related, I suppose

 

Somewhere in the bowels of C'net must be the study someone did a few years back on relative weights of the new hybrid concertinas, and comparisons to some vintage ones..

 

Having tried them all, I can say with reasonable confidence that the Morse is the lightest by a fair amount. At last year'rs Squeeze In, we had an opportunity to play with ones by Tedrow, Edgley, Herrington (mine), Morse, Geuns-Wakker and, I think, Marcus. My old square Herrington was the heaviest, but I think his more recent ones have slimmed down

 

Sound is subjective; I found them all very good sounding, but different. Tom Lawrence's Edgley, played at the evening concert, and Frank's G/d (maybe that was played at the BB workshop in April) both sounded superb, and it wasn't just because they are two great players. Their instruments had a very nice , somewhat reedier sound than the others -- different than vintage boxes, but it worked very well with Irish music.

 

The Morse was closest, I thought, to a traditional concertina sound, and also the loudest, but I also really liked the sound of the Tedrow I tried, as well. The Marcus felt great, but it was way too quiet for Morris music.. All were very good players, but with variations in feel that every player will respond differently to. I honestly liked them all. The Morse and Edgley seemed the fastest, but that may be more my playing style than anything else.

 

I think the old Herringtons had something of an advantage in durability, but I believe Harold has abandoned his innovative mechanism for a more traditional, Lachenal - like one, and I don't know how that holds up. But my square Herrington, about 7 years old, has hard use for 5 of those years, including at Morris events where it was subjected to the usual abuse by rowdy dancers, and still has never required service. But the sound is harsh compared to the newer ones and more accordion like, and it is as heavy as a brick..

 

I ultimately chose the Morse G/d as a second concertina , mostly for Morris playing (Morris with the Morse), because of its extreme light weight, combined with very strong voice. I could have been happy with the Tedrow or Edgley, and seriously considered both, but my sore tendons thank me for getting the Morse; every ounce counts..

Edited October 24, 2005 by Jim Besser

[Chris Timson]

Somewhere in the bowels of C'net must be the study someone did a few years back on relative weights of the new hybrid concertinas, and comparisons to some vintage ones..

 

www.concertina.net/guide_weights.html

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

Somewhere in the bowels of C'net must be the study someone did a few years back on relative weights of the new hybrid concertinas, and comparisons to some vintage ones..

www.concertina.net/guide_weights.html

Hmm. There seems to be a typo in that table: The 32-button Lachenal is listed as being 2 pounds with no ounces, while the columns translating that into 38 ounces and 1.08 kg, plus its placement in the upper table, indicate that the real weight is 2 pounds 6 ounces.

[Martin Milner]

I've started playing D/G melodeon for Cotswold Morris only in the last two months. I was advised to get the two Mally Cotswold Morris books, from which most of their tunes are taken. Some tunes appear in different versions, under the same name, distinguished only by the name of the village where that version is played. Others have closely related names (Lads a Bunchum/Laudanum Bunches?) that suggest a common origin, but are very different in detail.

 

Do your side have a tunebook/CD they can refer you to? If not, maybe it would be a good project to build a tunebook for the side, so new players joining wouldn't have to start from the bottom up?

 

Martin

[Jim Besser]

Do your side have a tunebook/CD they can refer you to? If not, maybe it would be a good project to build a tunebook for the side, so new players joining wouldn't have to start from the bottom up?

 

A previous musician, still a dancer, notated many of the tunes, and he's shared his notebook with me. Someday I'll copy the whole thing.

 

But some of the tunes I've picked up by learning other versions, then having dancers hum our particular variations! No doubt I've introduced my own variations along the way, otherwise known as "mistakes." It's the folk process at work.

Edited October 24, 2005 by Jim Besser

[Chris Timson]

Probably the most comprehensive resource for tunes is Lionel Bacon's A Handbook of Morris Dances. I got my copy way back in the 70s when it was first published. On browsing round the web I've just come up with this link, which has all the tunes from the book in ABC.

 

Chris

[david ayres]

Im 53, and been playing for Cotswold morris for 20 years. This is the 3rd side that I have been involved with. I play DG Melodeon mostly, but also have a 32 key Lachenal in DG. and a Wheatstone Maccaan Duet. My present side is fairly lacking in Concertina players. 2 Associate Members play either a Maccaan Duet, or a Jeffries Anglo, but they usually only meet up with the side 2-3 times a year.

 

My side has been going since 1949, and similar to that stated in an earlier thread, they have their own names for some tunes, and also dance some dances different to other sides. Its just something thats developed over the years and is accepted as common practice. Some of the older members can be a little bit resistant to change.

 

I dont always enjoy playing my Anglo for dancing. Most of the tunes are played in G and for some reason they dont sound that good on my Concertina. Anyway, the Melodeons tend to drown the sound out, so I tend to resort back to the Melodeon in the end.

 

Anyway 50s a good age to be involved, considering the adverage age of Morris Men is about 40+

[Jim Besser]

Probably the most comprehensive resource for tunes is Lionel Bacon's A Handbook of Morris Dances. I got my copy way back in the 70s when it was first published. On browsing round the web I've just come up with this link, which has all the tunes from the book in ABC.

 

I have an annotated copy of Bacon, passed down from musician to musician, and I've used that and other Web sites extensively Very helpful.

[Peter Brook]

Phil,

 

I'm not sure if my experience will help you but I think I have "lived" the problem that you first mentioned.

 

I understand your questions is:

D/G anglo or C/G anglo for cotswold morris if playing with others and convention is tunes mainly in G with some D?

 

I think a D/G is easier as all of the G scale falls on your right hand middle row leaving the left for chords, and you can broadly go up and down the rows - 1 dimensional playing so to speak.

 

When I started with my C/G I played on the G row firstly with the left hand in the right pitch (register) which left my right hand flapping about. Then I decided that was silly and played everything on the G row an octave higher than written! Not very nice .

 

Then I discovered that you can play a C/G in G quite effectively for morris across the rows. You are effectively playing it inside out, and the challenge is to transfer as many notes as you can onto the right hand leaving the left hand as free as possible.

 

So for example a tune starting in G you might start on the push of the last button on the middle row left hand or even better pull of forth button left hand. With a bit of practice you can play in octaves and also make some nice chords. The only real problem is the fact you don't have a low D, the lowest pitch D is the D next to middle C, so D chords don't sound that strong.

 

I know cotswold convention is one musician but I personally quite like having more than one musician although I think three is a practical limit, and I think they should be three different instruments. Although I play melodeon I don't play it "out" as we already have a melodeon player. Our normal set up is concertina, melodeon and fiddle, although on occasions we have had a serpent and a hullican along too!

 

I think it has been said by the others that the important thing is that as a musician you are there to enable the dancers to perform - it is not a musical performance in the sense that people will be totally tuned in to what you do. In fact if you can put enough feeling, rythym and emphasis into the tune then chords are not strictly necessary. It is pretty hard to play chords on a whistle or violin

 

It would be good to hear other opinions on this "style" of playing.

 

As for music everyone said you must get the Mally Books (which I did). However my side have been going about twenty years and have several tunes with no notation and which are different to anything I've heard elsewhere - me then saying "you are not playing that as it is written" went down quite badly .

A good suggestion would to be to ask the music leader to play everything through at half speed and dance speed whilst you record him/her, and to ask them to also supply you with the dots (if they have them.)

 

all the best,

 

Peter

 

BTW I play an Andy Norman box which is bright, loud and light

Edited October 24, 2005 by Peter Brook

[geoffwright]

Seeing as the C/G instrument is expected to play in one and two sharps, why cannot the G/D melodionist get one with some accidentals on so they can transpose down one flat into C?. This may also start to cut down on the "random bass" problem mentioned.

[Jim Besser]

Then I discovered that you can play a C/G in G quite effectively for morris across the rows. You are effectively playing it inside out, and the challenge is to transfer as many notes as you can onto the right hand leaving the left hand as free as possible.

 

That works fine, and I did it a lot before I bought a G/D, but it produces a much less "traditional" Cotswold sound. Playing G on a G/D -- or C on a C/G -- does produce that characteristic sound.

 

Re: chords v melody: I've played with people who do it both ways. An accordion player who is highly regarded among dancers around here believes in stripping away as much melody as possible. His tunes become collections of chords, with only brief fragments of the melody thrown in to hold it together. Sound-wise, I dislike it, but the dancers like to dance to him. and there are times I've adopted some of his techniques -- ie when the dancers seem to be having trouble holding on to the rhythm, I strip away notes.

 

A well-known fiddler in our region takes a different tack. He emphasizes melody, but does it in such an emphatic, clear way the dancers say he's fantastic to dance to. He can do it all without much chording, and do it solo.

 

What I'm working toward: adapting my playing on the fly to be maximally effective for the dancers as they progress through the dances.

[Chris Timson]

Seeing as the C/G instrument is expected to play in one and two sharps, why cannot the G/D melodionist get one with some accidentals on so they can transpose down one flat into C?.

Oh come on! We're talking about melodeon players here!

 

(Runs, ducks and hides, very fast, very very fast )

 

Chris