Can anybody ID this instrument?

[Chemnitzer]

Hi there, I have what l thought was a Chemnitzer concertina with 23 bass buttons and 28 treble buttons.

 

That is, a 51-button concertina (there's no air release button, a lever does that job).

 

It is wonderfully decorated with mother of pearl inlays, including bird (nightingale?) silhouettes, and has a lyre design printed on all corners. I've seen a blog where a person displays a Chemnitzer he acquired which also has that lyre design - but he doesn't name the maker, probably because it wasn't clear to him either.

 

Unfortunately l cannot identify the maker of mine, but the time period feels like early 1900s. Could anybody ID it?

 

https://imgur.com/a/bSq5XqM

Edited December 6, 2023 by Chemnitzer

[Chemnitzer]

Here are the reeds / valves, let me know what you think of their state - the concertina plays quite nicely, it's the prettiest thing i've seen too, at least on the outside:

 

 

 

 

[Daniel Hersh]

It's a Carlsfelder/Karlsfelder rather than a Chemnitzer but I can't tell you much more than that.

[Chemnitzer]

Are you sure? The nameplate if anything gives an initial H.

 

Ooops l just realised l didn't give a pic of it, here it is:

 

[Chemnitzer]

Someone thinks it might be a 51 button Scheffler, the layout of which seems to gel with what l'm seeing, that button #14 on the treble side is unisonoric

[Chemnitzer]

Oh and by the way, what do you think the pricing should rightly be for something like this? Each note plays, unsure of tuning but a sound test seems fine to my basic ear

[mandojoe]

Rather like this Arnold.  If my copied text doesn't appear, it is the last listing on this page.

 

Bert Smit's Chemnitzer

• Alfred Arnold Chemnitzer Concertina in "Scheffler'sche Lage", build in 1932. Three reeds per button on the right side, two or three per button on the bass-side. In total there are 52 buttons and 104 tones.

   

   

  General view of the instrument from the treble side Color JPEG, (40792 bytes), 497x347

   

  Close-up of the reeds and the leathers Color JPEG, (36678 bytes), 499x351

   

  View from the top showing 'Alfred Arnold' metal plate Color JPEG, (28926 bytes), 500x344

   

  General view on the reeds Color JPEG, (40308 bytes), 492x345

   

  Front view on the belly Color JPEG, (52075 bytes), 498x347

   

  General view on the wooden mechanics under the buttons Color JPEG, (33991 bytes), 497x345

   

  View on the inside of the belly Color JPEG, (25406 bytes), 503x345

   

  Close-up of the buttons Color JPEG, (32497 bytes), 503x345

[Chemnitzer]

That's basically it, but mine appears to be more ornate, and l wonder if the nameplate is actually missing? The ornate grille that also serves as an identifier just gives a very leafy "H" rather than "A", but the lyre is clearly a nod to the Arnold family. Could it be descendant of Alfred Arnold? Anybody know the family tree?

 

EDIT: Many, many German concertinas appear to have the Lyre symbol on their corners

Edited December 6, 2023 by Chemnitzer

[Chemnitzer]

Strikingly similar one here, thought to be a Karlsfelder:

 

 

[Chemnitzer]

Plot twist: I think it's a Haustein:

 

https://akkordeon-museum.ch/bandonion-hersteller-unbekannt-a-oder-h-104-toene-30-5-bzw-6-chor22-al-st/

 

But mine is 51 key. Anybody know if a Haustein could have a Scheffler key map? Is this really a bandonion then?

 

Feeling dizzy now ...

Edited December 6, 2023 by Chemnitzer

[Chemnitzer]

Found two Haustein conertinas on this ad-ridden blog, please don't click if you dislike ads, no popups there at least:

https://danmelander.tripod.com/concertina/concertina_photos3_early_german.htm

 

What l have is definitely a Haustein, but unlikely to be a "Chemnitzer" as the blog relishes calling them!

[Daniel Hersh]

I'm not sure what information you're still looking for, if any.  I did notice this on eBay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155926598298 - are you the seller? 

 

But I wanted to mention that when I wrote that this concertina (and the one in the earlier post that you linked to) was a Carlsfelder/Karlsfelder, that was based on a rule of thumb that for large German concertinas of around 50 buttons, if both sides have three long rows, it's a Carlsfelder, if one side has three rows and one has four, it's a Chemnitzer, and if both sides have four or more rows it's a bandonion/bandonion.  I was not aware of the existence of the Scheffler layout until very recently, which also has three rows on each side.  I don't know if that would be considered a Carlsfelder subvariant or something completely different.

[Chemnitzer]

@Daniel Hersh Hi there,

 

I can see why you'd say it's a Carsfelder then. Also, the curvature of the layout seems to be more Carlsfelder than Schefflder according to [WARNING: ANOTHER ADD-RIDDEN SITE, but very very very very useful] https://bandochords.de/

 

So, anyway, l was going by the action of Treble button #14, which is unisonoric on mine. That could only be Scheffler right? [EDIT: No, Chemnitzers - at the very least 104-key - can have a unisonoric Treble #14 too] Odd that nobody calls a 51 button Scheffler "101 keys" therefore, rather than "102 keys".

 

My thread was to ID the device, i.e. maker and keymap. I got too confident and called myself "Chemnitzer" but it aint a Chemnitzer at all.

 

What is outstanding in my query:

- Surely it's a Scheffler, agree? Despite the curvature in layout

- Does anybody have a catalogue image of the exact item?

- What would the actual price range be? The sounds seem very good, though l'm unsure of pitch perfection. It's a very old instrument for sure.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Chemnitzer

[Chemnitzer]

13 hours ago, Daniel Hersh said:

 I did notice this on eBay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155926598298 - are you the seller? 

 

 

Blush yes. I really want to sell it and get a nice 48 button English system concertina in a flight case that l can go hiking with.

However, the item is so beautiful l might decide to just keep it and learn the system, l hate diatonic but may end up loving it, l think it will help stave off senility if l can get my two brain hemispheres to actually talk to each other, which a diatonic system would surely entrain. Not looking forward to learning it though. Point is, someone was saying l should price it for £300 which l'm reluctant to do (never say never) - surely it's worth more?

[Richard Mellish]

4 hours ago, Chemnitzer said:

 

Blush yes. I really want to sell it and get a nice 48 button English system concertina in a flight case that l can go hiking with.

However, the item is so beautiful l might decide to just keep it and learn the system, l hate diatonic but may end up loving it, l think it will help stave off senility if l can get my two brain hemispheres to actually talk to each other, which a diatonic system would surely entrain. Not looking forward to learning it though. Point is, someone was saying l should price it for £300 which l'm reluctant to do (never say never) - surely it's worth more?

Playing an English concertina surely requires the brain hemispheres to talk to each other even more intensely.

[Theo]

17 minutes ago, Chemnitzer said:

 - surely it's worth more?

 Yes and no, but mainly no.

The cost to build a new one would be much much higher, probably a few thousand, but the value of it now is as much as someone is willing to pay.  As far as I can understand it is an obscure variant of a class of concertina than is played in a few niche genres.  My guess is if you really want to sell it you might need to lower your expectations.

 

A practical suggestion is to search eBay for completed sales, see what price similar instruments have sold for.

[Chemnitzer]

4 hours ago, Richard Mellish said:

Playing an English concertina surely requires the brain hemispheres to talk to each other even more intensely.

More axes to think about simultaneously, with a diatonic setup

 

3 hours ago, Theo said:

 Yes and no, but mainly no.

The cost to build a new one would be much much higher, probably a few thousand, but the value of it now is as much as someone is willing to pay.  As far as I can understand it is an obscure variant of a class of concertina than is played in a few niche genres.  My guess is if you really want to sell it you might need to lower your expectations.

 

A practical suggestion is to search eBay for completed sales, see what price similar instruments have sold for.

Yes that was pointed out to me by someone helping me ID it, that Schefflers are rare which could mean they are disregarded, or it could mean someone is desperate for one.

 

I'm sure l saw one for about £2,000 but l cannot recall where in my searches.

 

Taking it for what it is: a functional, decent sounding accordion, with buttons, and a wide range, the range itself being like one key away from the bare minimum for use in an orchestra (l mean the range, not sound quality, quality is decent as l say but probably not orchestra performance grade). Also its very pretty.

 

So, l see used 30-key English concertinas for about £280-£380. Taking my cue from that, my concertina could never be £300. I'll admit some of the valves may need replacing as is normal. But l don't see any dire need to even do that. Plus, valves aren't that expensive unless a person chooses to go expensive. I feel some valve sellers on eBay are too pricey, l mention in the ad a shop  that does them cheap.

 

Also, if l'm prepared to keep it and learn Scheffler if no buyers, then l hope others would consider learning Scheffler too.

 

I'm not an accordionist btw, l'm purely in it for the repertoire, don't  care much for the scene, though l'm sure l'd get further into it as time goes by.

 

BTW just so you know, much of what l researched only came to light after l registered and was waiting a few days for approval, so the screen name got outdated fast and the original OP was posted all the same but by then l had already discovered most. P.S. It is definitely a Scheffler, despite Chemnitzers sharing the unisonoric Treble #14, because the button numberings clearly make it a Scheffler.

[Daniel Hersh]

5 hours ago, Chemnitzer said:

So, l see used 30-key English concertinas for about £280-£380. Taking my cue from that, my concertina could never be £300. 

 

Read Theo's response again, and be aware that he is writing from his experience as an established concertina and accordion restorer and dealer.   What it's worth is what someone is willing to pay for it.