Why not more "expressive" bellows changes on the English?

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

I would only like to note, that objectively, due to the nature of bisonoric instrument, you can’t play legato on an Anglo if notes in the sequence require bellows reversal. No amount of practice can overcome free reed physics. Proper legato has to have tiny overlap of note duration. No matter how fast your bellows change is, you always introduce a pause, new note attack, and valve and action noises. This is why even on Englishes and duets bellows management is as important, as it is on the Anglo. I have a huge air supply on my big box, but nevertheless have to plan ahead before long legato polyphonic phrases. This is the reason why I have long and very accessible air lever instead of a simple air button.

Edited January 14 by Łukasz Martynowicz

[hjcjones]

8 hours ago, 4to5to6 said:

 I’ve yet to see an Anglo player do cross row fingering legato. .

I don't know which anglo players you've seen, but a "disciplined and well studied "  anglo player will do just that. 

 

On any instrument a novice player will focus first and foremost on playing the notes. Expression comes later. On the EC it is natural for a novice to play without a change of bellows until they are fully open or closed, whereas on anglo changes are more or less forced on a novice player by the push-pull scale, whether or not it is musically appropriate.  Adding expression through use of the bellows is a more advanced technique on EC which has to be learned.  Anglo players have the opposite problem, and have to learn how to play legato (which may mean using different buttons to play a note without needing to reverse the bellows).

 

It is not necessarily laziness which prevents this, but these are skills which have to be learned, and like any skill this takes time and may be beyond some players. Also remember that until quite recently, before online lessons became possible, many players on any system had no access to a teacher and had largely to teach themselves, perhaps with occasional guidance from a mentor or at a workshop. 

 

With respect to the OP, the whole premise of this thread is mistaken. Bellows reversals (and other techniques) are widely used to add expression to EC playing, although this is a more advanced technique which not all players have.  However it is unfair to judge an instrument's capabilities based only on the playing of those who have not fully mastered it.

[hjcjones]

3 hours ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

due to the nature of bisonoric instrument, you can’t play legato on an Anglo if notes in the sequence require bellows reversal. 

That is of course true. However most notes are duplicated somewhere, and in many cases all the notes can be found in the required direction and just require a more complicate fingering pattern. Part of the art of mastering anglo is using these alternative combinations, and this may include arranging things so that when you do meet a note which can be played only in one direction you are already set up to play the whole phrase that way.

 

As you say, this does require some pre-planning and thinking ahead, but this gets easier with experience.

[Clive Thorne]

I am an anglo player. Having tried an english concertina (just the once) my first impression was that if I pulled hard on the bellows the whole thing would jump out of my hands.

 

Obviously this is not the case as thousands of english players prove every day!

Edited January 15 by Clive Thorne

[Alan Day]

On this interesting discussion the difference between Anglo and English has been discussed.

If you are playing a complicated piece of music on an Anglo - Three factors have to be taken into consideration. 

A)Running out of air

B)Is the chord, or note you require on the push, or the pull.

C)For very fast or complicated fingering do you require to use the accidentals or cross row playing.

The Anglo can be played like a Duet if you have accidentals (Normally three rows). A full scale on the push and  or, on the pull is possible with practice.

In the same way an English System can be played to sound like an Anglo, but repeating what has already been said ,it takes practice.

Each day you realise just how much time it takes to improve and master these instruments and never achieve it ,but it's a fun journey.

 

[hjcjones]

4 hours ago, HansQ said:

 

Thanks ! You are illustrating so well what I have been trying to say all the time...that the method by which you hold the English causes the incapability working the bellows in all respects effectively and precisely. 

 

There is a long-running debate about the way the English is held. Some players use wrist straps for additional support.  However despite the apparent limitations of the thumbstrap and rest there hasn't been a widespread move by EC players to adopt hand straps, and it would probably make it more difficult to reach some of the buttons .  There is another debate, almost as long-running, about the ergonomics of hand straps which can cause problems for some people. Whichever system you play there doesn't seem to be a simple or ideal answer.

 

However while it might require more technique to obtain control over the bellows with EC, and working the bellows won't be the same as working them on an Anglo, it is not the case that they cannot be worked effectively and precisely, as many players can demonstrate.

 

EC and duet by default are easier to play smoothly, being unisonoric, whereas anglos by default have more bounce due to being bisonoric, but this can be overcome. However the learning curve is different, and at beginner to intermediate level you'll probably find that more EC players tend to play smoothly and more angloists play bouncily. At advanced levels these differences disappear, and players of all systems are able to use bellows to add expression, or not, as they choose rather than as the mechanics of their instrument dictate.

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

Another two cents: the larger the Anglo is, the more it is possible to play in both bouncy and legato style, but due to the size increase, you loose some of the bounciness. Also, it requires more and more mastery to achieve this level of universality. The ultimate case is the largest „Anglo” of them all - the bandonion. 

Now back to Englishes. I get an impression, that this discussion focuses very much not on the Anglo vs English, but on the 30b anglo vs 48b treble English… I can’t imagine playing with any kind of dramatic bellows expression on a large, 60b+ concertina of any system without hand/wrist strap equivalent. You would inevitably end up with thumb injury. Even with a proper handling system, you will more probably invest your practice time in a proper snappy staccatto, than bellows pumping. Unless your repertoire is full of triplets, snappy button expression is more universal, than bellows pumping.

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

2 hours ago, HansQ said:

Right ! Like I said before...it is firstly a matter of having a proper connection between player and instrument to make effective transmission of energy possible. In the end a *mechanical* issue which can never be eliminated  by any "skill" or "practice" - possibly a little bit reduced. 

 

When connecting two loose parts you need three contact points for stability. Gripping the English by thumb and little finger offers just two. With 3rd and 4th fingers at the plate as was prescribed originally by C Wheatstone you do get three, but it still is a halfmeasure. On push you may achieve some additional stability by pressing the wrist against the endplate but it is completely lost again on pull. According to this it is always "better" having the thumb far into the strap for optimal stability (while loosing some access to the lower part of the keyboard of course) but just as you say Lukasz, you definitely need some additional "hand/ wrist strap equivalent" to manage "dramatic bellows expression"

 

 

While I agree with the overal sentiment, I have to object to the notion, that the thumb in the strap is just a single point of contact - it is an axis of contact. Single axis and a single point is enough to define a plane, hence it is enough to ensure stability. That is however "in ideal mathematical conditions". The problem with traditional English handling design is that the thumbstrap has to be flexible to some extent, so you loose a well defined axis, and than pinky rest is an ergonomic nightmare, relying on your weakest finger to act against forces of the lower side of the bellows. This is why you're basically forced to use the bellows in a fan-like motion, hold the concertina pointing upwards or play seated and utilise lap friction. All of those problems can be solved with highly non-traditional solutions like my antlers, but those are not to everyone's liking. Most people are into concertinas for trad music after all. Moreover, most of ergonomy improving solutions require some degree of alteration to the box, risking destroying a valuable antique.

[hjcjones]

7 hours ago, HansQ said:

The problem still remains that what these players "demonstrate" and "can do"  can never be anything else than individual compromise "solutions" which possibly (not certainly...) may work for some sympathizing copycats as well....^

I'm afraid I don't understand your point. Why should overcoming the instrument's innate tendency towards playing smoothly be a compromise? If a technique works it should work for everyone, not just the individual who invented it - whether everyone can master the skill is a different question?  And why are you denigrating copying what more accomplished players can do? Surely that is the very basis of learning any instrument, by copying what your teacher shows you, or what you see other players doing?

7 hours ago, HansQ said:

Im sorry but I have to repeat : nobody, even at advanced level,  can escape neither mechanics or other "laws of nature", nor what their instrument dictates. We are all victims of that....

Of course you can't escape the mechanics, but you can find ways to overcome them. The mechanics of the EC encourage playing smoothly, but it is nevertheless possible to introduce bellows expression. The mechanics of the anglo encourage bounciness, but it is possible to play smoothly without unnecessary bellows changes.

[Anglo-Irishman]

@HansQ,

Ther are more instruments out there than anglos and ECs, you know!

For example, there are guitars, mandolins and 5-string banjos. All plucked stringed instruments, all well accepted as folk-music instruments. I play them all, to a certain extent. But my favourite (non-free-reed) instrument is the banjo. Why? Because it's good at doing the things I need done! It will never have the full bass of a guitar, nor the singing tremolo of the mandolin - but it's ideal as an accompaniment to my voice, because of its frequency range, and it can play harmonised solos far better than the mandolin, and more easily than the guitar.

By the way, if I have a song that just calls for a nice guitar accompaniment, I pick up my guitar. And if I'm in a group situation where a strong melody line is called for, I'll take my mandolin.

Perhaps you might be best served if you played both Anglo and EC. You could concentrate on the one that gives you the most benefit, but use the other for the weak spots in the repertoire of your main squeeze.

 

Just a suggestion!😉

Cheers,

John

[hjcjones]

HansQ, we may be at cross-purposes, unless I am taking your axe-handle comparison too literally.  You appear to be arguing that any lack of expressive bellows changes in EC playing is due to the way the instrument is held.  Perhaps this is a factor, but I am arguing that the reason is because of the unisonoric nature of the EC. 

 

When they first start playing EC players have no need to change bellows direction and tend to simply play until the bellows are fully extended and then until they are fully closed. As their playing develops, they learn to shape the notes and add expression through deliberate use of the bellows, rather than simply using them as an air pump (expression can of course also be added through fingering, but use of the bellows offers an additional tool).  This is not individualistic compromise, it is simply achieving a more advanced level of playing.

 

Anglo players have the opposite problem. Its bisonoric nature requires novice players to make frequent bellows changes, and consequently it is fairly easy for anglo players to add expression this way - it is built in. Their problem is playing smoothly, and they have to learn additional techniques in order to eliminate bellows changes where they are musically inappropriate.  Again, these are not individual compromises but simply a more advanced level of playing.

 

It is true that some players of all systems experience problems with the way the instruments are held, whether it is strain on the thumbs with EC or carpal tunnel syndrome and similar issues with hand straps.  In those cases modifications do tend to be individual compromises to suit that particular person's difficulties, and might not be suitable for others.  

Edited January 16 by hjcjones
typos

[hjcjones]

13 minutes ago, HansQ said:

Technically I find it very strange IF NOT "we" participating in discussions of this kind might be capable working out modifications/solutions together that would improve conditions for the majority of players. Not much has happened during 150+ years but generations have passed.

I think those discussions are taking place, but this particular thread is possibly not the appropriate one as it is about playing style. There have been other discussions on that topic, or perhaps you should start a new one. 

 

If the majority of players had found that the way the instrument is held prevents them from playing to its full capabilities then no doubt an alternative design would already have emerged. If nothing has changed in 150 years perhaps that suggests that it is not something most players are concerned about.

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

3 hours ago, hjcjones said:

If the majority of players had found that the way the instrument is held prevents them from playing to its full capabilities then no doubt an alternative design would already have emerged. If nothing has changed in 150 years perhaps that suggests that it is not something most players are concerned about.

I’m confused… The whole premise of this thread is the fact, that EC players do use the bellows differently, than Anglo players do, and have done so for the last 150 years. So the argument here can very easily be reversed - if it was as you argue, that it is teaching problem instead of instrument construction problem, no doubt different schools and techniques would emerge during that time.

 

I started with an Anglo and then switched to Hayden after a year. I have never achieved similar enough level of bounciness on a duet, and I already had the bellows expression habits you argue EC/duet players don’t develop due to unisonority. All that with the same handstrap setup (later reinforced by additional thumbstrap for better bellows control). 
 

I agree, that bisonoric instruments force you to use bellows reversals from the get go, but it is not simply the case of „and unisonoric instruments don’t”. You have to achieve way higher levels of finger-wrist-hand coordination to pull off bounciness on unisonoric instrument. EC not only has a flawed handling interface, it also require more awkward and more varied hand positions for basic play. Cross row Anglo style is considered an advanced skill, but it is an entry requirement on a Hayden. Concertina types vary greatly in their core principles and ergonomics, and in consequence, the resulting sound. 

[hjcjones]

3 hours ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

I’m confused… The whole premise of this thread is the fact, that EC players do use the bellows differently, than Anglo players do, and have done so for the last 150 years.

I'm not suggesting that EC players can, or should, use the bellows the same way as an anglo player would. However I am questioning the premise of the thread, which is that EC players don't use bellows changes for expression, when you only have to watch a few expert players to see that they do.  The difference is that using the bellows this way is a more advanced skill for EC players whereas for anglo players it is built in from the start.

 

No one has mentioned the air button. This plays a huge part in anglo playing, not just for air supply to but to help with expression.  ECs don't have an air button (is this what bowing levers were intended for?) and duet players don't often seem to use the air button the same way. This, perhaps even more than the way the instrument is held, accounts for the differences in the way anglo and EC players use the bellows. 

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

@hjcjones I mentioned air button/lever in one of my posts. It is invaluable tool when you need to prime the bellows before long, polyphonic legato phrase. Boxes without air control are a complete deal breaker for me.

[Mike Franch]

On 1/12/2024 at 5:07 AM, 4to5to6 said:

I love playing old Victorian music on the EC like say like Mr. Beveridge’s Maggot

I really enjoyed your rendition of Mr. Beveridge's Maggot, but it's hardly a Victorian tune. The Barnes Book of English Country Dance Tunes  dates it as 1701.

[David Barnert]

1 hour ago, Mike Franch said:

I really enjoyed your rendition of Mr. Beveridge's Maggot, but it's hardly a Victorian tune. The Barnes Book of English Country Dance Tunes  dates it as 1701.

 

Except it’s Danny Chapman (RatFace here on c.net, ProfRat on Youtube) playing in the video. See the video on YouTube.

[Mike Franch]

57 minutes ago, David Barnert said:

 

Except it’s Danny Chapman (RatFace here on c.net, ProfRat on Youtube) playing in the video. See the video on YouTube.

Thanks, David. But the key part of my comment holds this is not a Victorian tune. Nobody probably plays it in true early 18th-centry style, and our modern chordal style might be closer to the Victorian style, but it's still 18th century. Maybe even late 17th century! (And a nice dance, too!)