F Tenor conversion - Why D# to Db?

[4to5to6]

I understand that to convert a TT or BT to a “F Tenor” instrument that you swap the B and Bb reeds and file the D# reed bellys to go down a whole step to Db.  
 

The idea behind a F Tenor is that you can play all the normal fingerings down a row the same way you would play on a regular “C Tenor” but now you are playing down a 5th so playing the key of C is actually the key of F and so on.  This is done to get a richer, deeper and fuller sound.

 

In someways this is the same idea as a Baritone except you are staying in the same key but sounding an entire octave lower.  This makes playing an octave lower easy as you don’t have to transpose.

 

So here’s my question..,

 

I can easily understand the B and Bb swap (the key of F has a Bb) but why the D# to Db change?  D# doesn’t show up until you play in the key of E (4 sharps) and Db until you play in the key of Ab (4 flats).

 

I’m sure it’s has something to do with the bit odd layout of the sharps and flats with the enharmonics as obvious when you play up and down a chromatic scale.  Hmm…. Maybe it is so you can keep the exact same chromatic scale fingering pattern on a F Tenor as if you were playing a chromatic scale on a regular C Tenor instrument.  Did I just answer my own question???

.

Edited July 31, 2023 by 4to5to6

[Little John]

3 hours ago, 4to5to6 said:

I can easily understand the B and Bb swap (the key of F has a Bb) but why the D# to Db change?

 

A true F tenor is a transposing instrument. When you finger a C scale it sounds as an F scale a fifth lower. But the score you are playing from would be written in C. (The same as a French Horn in an orchestra. Most brass instruments are transposing instruments, but usually in Bb or Eb.)

 

So you're thinking in C but sounding in F. An English concertina is designed with four sharps and three flats. To maintain that as written the the Db should be changed to D#. As sounding that is changing Gb to G#.

 

Does it matter? My C bass is actually a converted F bass. The Bs and Bbs (as sounding) have been swapped but the Dbs (as sounding) have never been re-tunes to D#. Only once has it caused me any difficulty.

 

LJ

 

PS If a TT is changed to an F tenor in this way it's not a "true" F tenor because the notes are displaced one row from where they would otherwise be.

[4to5to6]

Regarding 48B Tenor thumb strap placement in relation to middle C…

 

It’s come to my attention that many 48 key tenors have been converted to F tenors (swapping the B and Bb reeds and tuning the D# down to Db) due to the middle C placement in relation to the thumb strap.  

 

It seems that tenors are designed with the buttons shifted up one row so dropping them down to F will bring the root note in line with the thumb strap like most trebles, TT, etc.

 

I am hoping that someone with a tenor can verify this for me.

 

Why does Wheatstone shift the buttons up a row in a tenor?

[John Wild]

I have a Wheatstone 48-button aeola tenor.

Middle C is in the same position relative to the thumb strap and finger rest that you would usually find on a treble.

This means that the lower notes down to the next C are nearer the end of the instrument closest to the player's body.

I previously owned a Crabb 48-button tenor. In this instrument the button layout looked like a treble. this meant that the note in the position of a treble's middle C was the F below middle C, i.e. the standard next button along the row.

 

The note range of the two instruments was identical. See images below.

[4to5to6]

Thanks for the photos John.  Very interesting.

Do you agree then that the Crabb tenor would of been better suited as a F tenor?

 

[Little John]

12 hours ago, John Wild said:

I have a Wheatstone 48-button aeola tenor.

Middle C is in the same position relative to the thumb strap and finger rest that you would usually find on a treble.

 

Not everyone will agree with me, but my view is that if middle C is where it would be on a treble, and the range extends to the C below that, then the instrument is a tenor-treble; albeit truncated at the top end.

 

Again in my view, the Crabb is a true tenor. It would be interesting to know if it started live as an F-tenor, but without looking inside it's impossible to get any clue.

 

I can't really see the advantage of converting a TT to a not-quite F tenor; unless you want to play brass band music from an Eb score, which is what F-tenors were meant for.

 

Edited August 22 by Little John
In my haste I quoted myself! Removed.

[4to5to6]

I’ll draw up a button layout tomorrow and attach it.  This should explain all.

[John Wild]

5 hours ago, Little John said:

 

Not everyone will agree with me, but my view is that if middle C is where it would be on a treble, and the range extends to the C below that, then the instrument is a tenor-treble; albeit truncated at the top end.

I am not pursuing this for an argument. I will just say that my view is that a tenor-treble is normally the 56-button instrument consisting of the treble range + an extra half-octave at the lower end. If it does not have the full treble range then a different name is required.

 

5 hours ago, Little John said:

Again in my view, the Crabb is a true tenor. It would be interesting to know if it started live as an F-tenor, but without looking inside it's impossible to get any clue.

At one time it was speculated that it had been a treble converted to a tenor. That might have held if it was the only one known to have that configuration. But a second one is known. The one I had is number 9414. The 2nd one is number 9609, which came up for sale by Barleycorn on 2014. It looked identical apart from the colour of the bellows. I cannot now give more information about No.9414 as I sold it in 2020, when I acquired the aeola.

[Little John]

1 hour ago, John Wild said:

I am not pursuing this for an argument.

 

I would prefer to think of it as a discussion 😀.

 

1 hour ago, John Wild said:

If it does not have the full treble range then a different name is required.

 

OK, so a treble with extra notes at the top (usually a 56-button) is often called an "extended treble", but it is definitely a treble by virtue of the position of the middle C and the fact that it starts from G3 (the G below middle C). If by "the full range of the treble" you mean 48 buttons, that is certainly the most common range now, but earlier Wheatstones had fewer buttons. What they all had is the middle C in the same position and a bottom note of G3.

 

Modern makers have realised that most people have no use for the highest notes. Marcus music advertise an English concertina with 37 buttons. A C Norman advertises 32 and 20 button English concertinas. Wheatstone in their "Mayfair" period sold a 30 button English (Barleycorn have one for sale at the moment). They have fewer buttons than the "full" 48 button Treble, but in all respects they are a treble concertinas. What buttons they have you will find in exactly the same position as on a "full" treble. I suggest it is easier to refer to them as "37-button treble", "32-button treble" etc. rather than having a different name for each.

 

The same logic applies to the "tenor-treble" (although someone, I forget who, pointed out that "treble-tenor" might be even more logical) because it is a treble instrument which has been extended downward to the tenor range. But it is first and foremost a treble because of the position of middle C. A player of the standard treble could pick it up and play without any adjustment.

 

This is also what distinguishes a "baritone-treble" from a "baritone". Similar range of notes. A treble player could again pick up a baritone-treble and play in the normal treble range without adjustment. But not a baritone. They would find themselves sounding an octave lower than expected, and if they wanted to play at treble pitch the notes would all be in the wrong place.

 

1 hour ago, John Wild said:

At one time it was speculated that it had been a treble converted to a tenor.

 

I think this is most unlikely. The reed slots would be too short to accommodate reeds a fifth lower, and the chambers would be too small for the pitch. The instrument in your photograph looks bigger than the standard 6 1/4" treble size; as indeed was the Crabb tenor I once had briefly on approval. (I didn't keep it because, for the price asked, it wasn't in very good condition.)

[John Wild]

As I stated earlier, I am not pursuing this for an argument.

I have expressed my opinion and have nothing more to add.

[4to5to6]

My rare model 14 has 56 buttons with range from G2 to G7, 4 octaves is like a tenor treble except a row is taken off the top and an extra lower row added on the bottom.  G to G.  The middle C is on the LH side just like a treble or TT so the fingering is NOT reversed like a baritone.  However, it is usually still referred to as a Baritone Treble like the other extended baritone instruments.

 

Based on the description above, as it does not have the full treble range then it should be called a baritone tenor.  

 

However, most Baritone trebles have the middle C on the RH side (fingering reversed so you can easily play an octave lower with treble fingering) like a baritone.  So shouldn’t these instruments be called a Treble Baritone (reversed)?

 

It also gets confusing with a C bass and the lower G bass when combined with an extended range.  Many should be called Bass Baritones not Barritone Bass as the higher ranges are reversed like a baritone.

 

The other factor that comes into this, which I originally asked above, and that is not at all obvious in the Wheatstone Price lists is the location of the C button to the thumb strap.  Traditionally middle C lines up with the center of the LH thumb strap as with a treble, tenor treble, etc. but not always.  

 

Many times the C button is shifted up or even down a row especially with tenor style instruments as shown in the Crabb and Wheatsone photos above.  When the middle C is on the RH side, then it should always be called Baritone in my opinion.

 

Interesting discussion.  I’m not sure this will ever be standardized in modern times as reference will always be made to the Wheatstone price lists which are inconsistent.

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Edited August 22 by 4to5to6

[wunks]

21 hours ago, 4to5to6 said:

Regarding 48B Tenor thumb strap placement in relation to middle C…

 

It’s come to my attention that many 48 key tenors have been converted to F tenors (swapping the B and Bb reeds and tuning the D# down to Db) due to the middle C placement in relation to the thumb strap.  

 

It seems that tenors are designed with the buttons shifted up one row so dropping them down to F will bring the root note in line with the thumb strap like most trebles, TT, etc.

 

I am hoping that someone with a tenor can verify this for me.

 

Why does Wheatstone shift the buttons up a row in a tenor?

Just curious but in the 2 instruments pictured it appears that the strap and rest are shifted.  The button position is the same for both.  Does this give a clue as to the intent?

[4to5to6]

Both are 48 button tenor (tenor treble) Aeolas.  Button arrangements are the same but one has the thumb straps shifted and extra long pinky slides.  Please see above discussion.

[Little John]

14 hours ago, 4to5to6 said:

When the middle C is on the RH side, then it should always be called Baritone in my opinion.

 

Yes, for me the key determinant is the position of middle C. Middle of the left thumb strap = treble. Top of the left thumb strap = tenor. Above the right thumb strap = baritone.

 

Edited August 23 by Little John
Correction - I had treble and tenor reversed.

[4to5to6]

 

On 8/22/2024 at 1:17 PM, Little John said:

Yes, for me the key determinant is the position of middle C. Middle of the left thumb strap = treble. Top of the left thumb strap = tenor. Above the right thumb strap = baritone.

 

Only somewhat true.  

 

Agree...  All true trebles (treble, model 14 baritone treble, model 19 tenor treble, also G Bass) have the middle C on the LH compared to a true baritone (also piccolo) with the middle C on the RH side).  

 

Disagree… The C is not always centred with the thumb strap on tenors and can be shifted up or down a row as the two tenors shown in the photos above demonstrate.  

 

All of my trebles and tenor trebles have the LH middle C centred on the thumb strap.  My Lachenal baritone has the C lined up with the middle of the LH thumb strap as well but this is not a set in stone rule especially for extended range trebles.  My model 14 BT has the buttons shifted up a row.  This is a rare model (a purple unicorn) but Geoff Woof has the same one, with the same layout, so I know it was designed this way.  His has an extra long pinky slide by the way to make it more interesting.  I don’t use the pinky slide as I follow the early (Blagrove) method of one finger per row so not sure how this affects things.

 

Not completely sure why the shift up or down of middle C row, thumb straps / button position on the instrument / extra long pinky slides, etc. all in regards to the centre line and to each other but it is possible that the physical balance of the instrument while playing standing up was the determining factor in all of this.

.

Edited September 6 by 4to5to6