4to5to6

58019 Would you have the circa year for Lachenal English treble serial 58019? Thanks 😊

In general, I use all 4 fingers, one finger per row. This system breaks down if I’m adding bass notes and harmony but I try to stick to the one finger per row of keys method. I find this method allows quicker playing and is much more intuitive.

These days, I commonly play with guitar, bass etc. in keys such as G, D, A, E… (all sharps keys). I wonder If I should put together a ln English concertina that plays D or A down the centre two rows? This would be interesting .🤨

What would be the circa year for English treble serial 58019 ? Thanks 😊

It’s like a guitar player slapping on his capo 😃. I’ve personally learned to play the English in all keys but just like a fully chromatic piano, less sharps or flats tend to be a bit easier. How often have I heard a guitar player say “Let’s move it up a fret” sliding their capo up. The piano player never complained but going from C to C# is going from no sharps or flats to seven sharps. Ouch! Not too common, but a few concertinas are dropped down this full step to Bb so they and the Bb / Eb brass players have it easier together. There are also C trumpets and saxophones. The rare EC is tuned to F major (transposed from C to F).to give a deeper sound. There are many variations of English concertinas with different ranges. English concertinas come in 48key piccolo, treble, baritone and G-bass, all an octave apart with the exact same fingering. You can also extend these ranges up or down with 56 or even 64 keys. Think of the string section in a symphony or say regular soprano, but also bass and contrabass clarinets, etc.

Yes, fully agree. ICA is a great resource for music, audio, video, publications, etc. and a wonderful bunch of people. I was very impressed when they started world concertina day in 2022.

I can understand that. Valid point. Everyone is wired a bit different and certain systems therefore appeal to different people. it would be a boring world if we were all the same!

Wonderful resource. Thanks.

PM me. I’ve been collecting original sheet music since I started. I have hand written manuscripts from the early virtuosos. They are amongst my most treasured possessions.

I agree… you can’t go wrong with these Edeophones if in good condition. Wonderful!

The Anglo is much easier to learn quickly as it is diatonic but limited chromatically. The English system has a brilliant layout with the sharps/flats on the outside rows. The duets are brilliant with melody on the right hand and accompaniment on the left if you can memorize the layouts. That said, all styles can be played on all three systems well. When I started about 12 or so years ago, the English was more popular, now the Anglo is. Look at the current prices for a Jeffries!!! Supply and demand! I personally still prefer the English but it has its challenges. Listen to Simon Thoumire play Scottish tunes on the English tenor treble or Danny Chapman play accompaniment along with the melody. Brilliant! All three systems have their pluses and minuses. They all can play any style of music well but certain systems play certain styles easier. The Entertainer on English - typically played on a duet. Simon Thoumire jigs - typically played on the Anglo. I’ve yet to hear anyone today play like I imagine the old virtuoso masters Regondi, Case, Sedgwick, Blagrove, etc. based on their musical scores and tutors. In the 1850s it was a prized instrument purchased as a must have by the elite in society which was a good thing and a bad thing at the same time. It was promoted by these virtuoso players. A few of these pieces have been attempted now but usually quite mechanical versus musical. Danny Chapman is one of my inspirational favorites as well as Simon. Danny can read fluently and is musical. Simon just has to think it and out comes the music. I’m working at it but not sure if I will make it to the required level to play the master’s pieces as we only live so many years on this earth. But I am having fun trying. The concertina is an amazing instrument no matter what system you prefer with never a dull moment. All the best! .

My limited experience... I have repaired two and still own two tort concertinas. I also had a complete hawksbill carapace (shell) that hung on a wall for about 150 years. I have also examined at least 8 other tort concertinas by closely examining their photos. To date, I have never seen genuine tort shell used on a concertina. All of them have been vintage bakelite in my opinion. I've tried every test such as burning, rubbing, polishing, black light etc. comparing them to real thing and the only definitive test I found is to examine them under a microscope. The pigment in real tort is made up of very distinctive tiny cellular flakes. The other point is that the largest scute on a hawksbill, even the world's largest record breaking one, would not be large enough to even make an end for a treble... maybe a piccolo or miniature at the best. My tort miniature is however Bakelite. Please post a photo of a concertina made with real tort. I would pay money to see one! PM me. I would travel a far distances to see, play and hear this instrument. I would love to be proven wrong. I do love the sound of Bakelite/laminate ends. Amboyna is still my favorite for live playing as it fits into the mix perfectly but Bakelite has a slightly subtler tone with less of an edge to it absolutely perfect for solo playing. These are the ultimate solo concertinas in my opinion. I have not had the opportunity to try dozens of them but ever one I have trived or heard recordings of, had basically the same tone even with brass or the high end aluminum reed frames of the day. Bakelite was a new rare plastic and it was very difficult to make ends out of it as it was thermosetting. The red color you often see on tort ends is from the red pigment glue used to laminate the Bakelite to the laminates. I've kept samples of this glue, a pinkish red. Many of these tort concertinas were the best of the best as this was considered one of the most elite materials of the day. If anyone has a baritone or TT tort they would part with, PM me. Please PM me with photos of some real tortoise ends if they exist. All the best, John

Thanks Wolf. What is the range to help me understand your Suttner better? How do you find playing it with all the keys shifted up one row in relation to the thumb straps? The 56 key Wheatstone model 14 Aeola also does this. It’s similar to a tenor treble but goes down to low baritone G therefore a G to G range versus the TT’s C to C range. Some of them have extra long pinky slides to help accommodate this shift. you could still turn it into an F tenor of course by filing some reed tongues down and possibly replacing a few tongues if they get overly thin but obviously not an easy swap back again if you change your mind. I could possibly make you a few custom reeds if you wish. Mr. Robert Pich has much more experience about this swap over than I do. All the best, John

Very nice and interesting Edeo.

Very nice concertina. Fine fret work.

I'm curious... what is the note range? Down to a C instead of a G? Interesting. Does the F key line up with the middle of the LH strap instead of the C key? Why couldn't you swap the reeds? Different size reed frames? .

The window in accordion reed slots have vertical sides, concertina reed windows are beveled (wider at the bottom). Beveled slots allow the reed to begin it's cycle at lower amplitudes than would be possible with straight sides, resulting in much increased dynamic range and feel. Concertinas work at much higher pressure than accordions with greater sensitivity. Accordions have much more air flow and therefore play louder. Interesting enough, the higher the reed pitch, the greater the beveling to maintain similar playing characteristics and volume level at a given pressure so that the instrument is balanced in volume and feel over its range. It's a challenge to have the lower pitch reeds not overpower the higher reeds. .

I'll send you an email when I have started working on them.

I have a couple waiting to be restored if you can wait a few more months. I just moved and am still struggling to get my workshop set up. One is a very, very nice 55 key ebony ended prime period Edeophone, the other is an inexpensive early 48 key Lachenal. Both are in great condition with original cases that just need the regular go through and tuning to A440.

Interesting. Thanks.

I used to think it was bellows technique but it is actually fingering technique. Perhaps what you are referring to is the two finger roll of Norman Chalmers and Simon Thoumire. I asked Simon how he did this about seven years ago first thinking he did it with the bellows and he created a short video to answer my question: I also just found these two extra videos on bellows control and making it swing that are very interesting: : All the best, John .

Some other thoughts related to this topic for discussion… I recently acquired a Lachenal New Model with bowing valves… these are a pair of air slide lever valves, one on each side, but they have an extra leather valve that a regular air valve doesn’t have… as I recall, one valve is on the inside and the other, on the outside directly under the pad so they work opposite push pull directions. I’ve read the patent and the old tutors to try to understand the claims and practiced to get some type of bowing affect but wasn’t successful. Anybody else have any experience with “bowing valves”? I rarely run out of air even playing with two or three note harmony. I think it just comes naturally with practice. You need an air tight very responsive instrument. I mainly play the TT now. The size of instrument across the flats affects the pressure which with you have to press to get the same air flow / reed pressure and the larger they are, the less amount of bellows travel which makes expressiveness much more of a challenging. Some of the larger ones are a real brute. The older 4 fold instruments had deeper folds so they could extend out farther. Another challenge comes with the single action basses as they only sound on the push so you have to take big gulps of air through the gill valves in the bellows golds but again this is doable as you get used to adjusting your phrasing, etc. to get it right. All this is really no difference from breath control during singing or playing a brass instrument.

Depends how responsive the reeds are. Some reeds sound with very little pressure and air flow. The negative side is that reeds set up this way will choke easily.

Anybody?

Very nice. Wonderful amboyna!