Wanted: Baritone Treble or Bass English

[4to5to6]

Wanted in any condition:

 

Wheatstone model 14 baritone treble English concertina preferred.

 

56 buttons preferred.

 

G to G preferred.

 

The model 14 has an arrangement similar to a Tenor Treble (middle C on the same side) but an extra bottom row added and the top row removed.

 

Any condition from fully playable to completely wrecked (I can use it as a model to build one).

 

I am open to other baritone treble models and also a baritone bass.

Edited July 2, 2023 by 4to5to6

[conzertino]

I have a EE model 15 BT, a ME model 16 BT and a ME BB für sale - all Aeolas, all in good condition...

[4to5to6]

On 7/2/2023 at 1:11 PM, conzertino said:

I have a EE model 15 BT, a ME model 16 BT and a ME BB für sale - all Aeolas, all in good condition...

 

Hi David,  I sent you an email.  I am interested specifically in your EE model 15.  Please reply with a few photos and serial please.

Thanks.

[SteveS]

I have a metal-ended Aeolo 60 key baritone that I'm servicing right now.

Should be available in 2 weeks or so.

Might it be of interest?

[4to5to6]

Thanks Steve, I just sent you an email.

Edited July 4, 2023 by 4to5to6

[Blackie]

I would be interested in all these too. Can we get photos and explanations about what distinguishes the models?

[4to5to6]

Hi Blackie... 

 

I’ll try to distinguish the models.  This is off the top of my head so I hope I’ll be corrected if I have this wrong.  I’m no expert and have only been playing the concertina for about 10 years but I’ll try..,

 

A 48B Treble has 3-1/2 octaves G to high C similar to the range of a violin.  Middle C on the LH side

 

A 48B Baritone is played the same as a treble with 3-1/2 octaves but is transposed down one octave.  Middle C is therefore on the RH side which makes it unique.

 

The popular 56B Tenor Treble has the middle C on the LH side, the same as a treble, but with an extra row on the bottom giving you 4 octaves, C to C.

 

Following suit, a 48B Tenor is like a 56B tenor treble but with the top “treble” row removed.

 

A 56B Baritone Treble is similar to a tenor treble (middle C on the LH side) but with the top row removed and a extra bottom row added, 4 octaves G to G.

 

The 62B and 64B Baritone Treble (see below) is like a 56B tenor treble but with an extra row on the bottom.  The lowest note is either a G or an F for 4-1/2 octaves.

 

I just found this in my notes:

Wheatstone Baritone Treble Aeola:

Model 14 - 56 keys, G to G, 7-fold (8”) 

Model 15 - 62 keys, G to C, 8-fold (8-1/2”) 

Model 16 - 64 keys, F to C, 8-fold (8-3/4”)

 

I can’t forget the 56B extended treble which is a treble with a super high extra row on top.

 

I am not quite sure how to define an F Tenor.  I believe it is similar to a treble but tuned roughly half an octave lower.  So if a Tenor is a C instrument, a F Tenor is an F instrument with a Bb within the middle two columns.

 

I don’t know now to define a C Bass or a G bass or really even a baritone bass.  Maybe there is no standard as I’ve seen basses that are from 2 to 4-1/2 octaves, double and single acting.

 

Wheatstone would build “special” instruments as well.  Just about anything you can imagine within the limits of what a reed can do.

 

A lot of this info came 1st from studying the price lists then from experience picked up over the years.

 

Another important thing to consider is how the thumb strap positions are relative to the button positions.

 

I’m no expert at this, but hopefully have it right.  Please correct me if wrong.

 

I’ve never owned a baritone treble or a bass and have only played or worked on a couple over the years so my knowledge is limited especially to the lower tonal range instruments.

 

In my other life, I played bass for over 30 years so hear the bass lines and lower harmonies.  I’m currently working on some arrangements that go into the baritone and bass range and could really use preferably a 56 button, model 14 (light weight) if anyone could help me out.  Beggars can’t be choosers so I would be extremely happy with any instrument classified as a baritone treble or baritone bass.

Edited July 5, 2023 by 4to5to6

[Blackie]

Excellent. Thank you

[conzertino]

I usually explain it this way: 

a 48key Concertina can play as a treble, a piccolo, a baritone or a bass. 

If there are notes added to the top, it would be called "extended".

If there are notes added to the lower end, the first word defines, how low it extends, the second word defines which octace it is plays, if fingered like a treble....

Examples: tenor-treble ( down to C ), baritone treble ( down to G ), bass-treble! ( down to C ), bass-baritone ( down to C ), extended treble, extended tenor-treble, extended baritone etc.

Hence a 48 key tenor-treble would not be called just a tenor.

A strange beast is the F-tenor. If fingered like a treble, it plays a fifth down. A few of them were made, mainly for the salvation-army. But any tenor-treble can easily be converted to F-tenor by swapping and tuning a couple reeds.   

There are a few concertinas around, which were tuned to odd keys ( i.e. clarinet, oboe, based on Bflat or Eflat... ) 

Some even had exchangeble reedpans for different keys!

Basses come as single action ( only sound in one direction ) and double action ( like trebles ) and can reach down to C or G. 

[4to5to6]

Thanks Robert.  Great explanation!

Has anyone ever put together anything on the later model numbers?

 

For example, it appears that a 64B model 12E (down to baritone F) is the same as the earlier model 16 BT.

 

One layout that is still confusing to me is the model 20B.  What do you call it? It has 64 buttons like a model 16 (the exact same range), but I understand that middle C is on the RH like a baritone (transposed an octave down from a treble) not on the LH side as a TT or BT.  It wouldn’t be a Baritone Treble but I would say an Extended Baritone?!?!?!

********
This is really important as I could end up with the wrong instrument if I just ask for the range and don’t ask what side middle C is on!

********

 

An F-Tenor has all the B and Bb reeds swapped and the Eb/D# reeds tuned down two semi tones.  When you play it like you would a treble (but one row down), you are transposed down a 5th (from C down to F).  This is wonderful as a harmony instrument or for a richer tone.

 Thanks Robert!

[Little John]

On 7/5/2023 at 7:51 AM, 4to5to6 said:

Following suit, a 48B Tenor is like a 56B tenor treble but with the top “treble” row removed.

 

Not quite. The difference is that all notes on a tenor are one row higher up than on a treble or on a tenor-treble.

 

On 7/5/2023 at 7:51 AM, 4to5to6 said:

I am not quite sure how to define an F Tenor.  I believe it is similar to a treble but tuned roughly half an octave lower.

 

Sort of. The key difference is that it plays a natural scale of F. So if you play what would be a scale of C major on and F tenor it comes our as F major a fifth lower. Its purpose is to play Eb brass parts (while the C instruments play the Bb parts). [I have a bass which was an F bass. I had it 'converted' to a C bass by having the B and Bb reeds swapped over. The effect is that it plays like a normal C instrument except the notes are one row higher and I've got Db where a C instrument would have a D#.]

[John Wild]

 

1 hour ago, Little John said:

 

Not quite. The difference is that all notes on a tenor are one row higher up than on a treble or on a tenor-treble.

Not always true. 48-button tenors can have two settings. On one the buttons are in the same position as on a treble, so that when you play where you would expect middle C on the treble, you are playing the F below it.

On the other, middle C is in the same position relative to the thumb strap as it is on a treble. The lower notes are one step nearer the end of the instrument. See these 2 photos. The note range is identical.

[Little John]

1 hour ago, John Wild said:

On the other, middle C is in the same position relative to the thumb strap as it is on a treble.

 

Surely that makes it a (truncated) tenor-treble?

[4to5to6]

So you can tell an instrument that was built as an F-tenor by looking at the position of the thumb straps.

 

interesting.

 

Good to know!

[John Wild]

3 hours ago, 4to5to6 said:

So you can tell an instrument that was built as an F-tenor by looking at the position of the thumb straps.

That depends on the definition. the one pictured is not an F tenor in the sense that reeds have been swapped around.

But that layout is sometimes referred to as an F tenor, because F is in the middle C position.

The note pattern follows the standard layout, with all the semitones on the outer rows.

The 2 instruments I showed in the photos have the same note range in the same pattern.

In the Crabb, the position of all the buttons is the same as a treble. It was once thought to be an original treble retuned to a tenor. That view was later reconsidered when several others just like it appeared for sale.  In the Wheatstone aeola, all the buttons are uniformly shifted one position towards the lower end. It has middle C in the centre of the thumb strap as in a treble, while middle C on the Crabb is in line with the upper end of the thumb strap.

[SteveS]

I have a Wheatstone Tenor-Treble with the top 8 buttons omitted.

It has exactly the same fingering position as regular TT. 

I've seen these referred to as tenors - but I prefer to call it a TT.

This one is distressed and awaits restoration.

 

My research indicates that these were made to special order for the Salvation Army.  The case for this instrument shows it was supplied by the Salvation Army.

 

The Wheatstone ledger for 1937 has this as a model 11a - the price list for 1935 lists it as Tenor-Treble.

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by SteveS