Troubadour Question

[SmougyG]

Hello. I started playing the back in November. I have both an Elise and the Stagi Hayden. I like playing the Elise most of the time except for the rare times I find myself needing the extra range.

 

I have noticed the quality in the reed performance between the two. With the Elise I need to use considerably more force to get the reeds to sing compared to the Stagi.

 

I am looking to know what my next step will be in the future: the troubadour or the peacock. I like the size of the troubadour more and I don't mind the buttons as I am able to do a lot already with the Elise, however the peacock looks to come with better reeds based on the CC site.

 

Are there any troubadour owners that can speak on the sensitivity of the reeds when playing?

[Caroline]

Hi Smougy,

I can't speak to the Troubadour or the Peacock, but I just received my Custom Clover from CC about two weeks ago and I am 100% satisfied.  It is a beautiful instrument and sounds great.  William and Karen were very helpful and showed great patience for all of my questions.  (I got the French polished, quilted maple and it is gorgeous!)  I had been learning on a Stagi Anglo...there is absolutely no comparison.

 

Caroline

Edited February 9, 2023 by Caroline

[Don Taylor]

18 hours ago, SmougyG said:

the peacock looks to come with better reeds based on the CC site

It also comes with the better Wakker bellows as standard and a hard shell case for $2,990. 

 

A Troubadour with those desirable options will cost you $2,240 (1,750 + 395 + 95).

 

Unless the small size of the Troubadour is really, really important to you then I think the extra $750 is well worth it.

[seanc]

I would really urge you to look at one of the Jay concertinas. Not sure what your price range is.  
 

I know you said you have been able to get away with the 37. But as you get better and your repitoire grows you are very likely to really wish you opted for more range. 
 

the way a Hayden is set up. 37 buttons is extremely limiting. It is near impossible to play anything farther from C than 2 sharps or flats. 

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

19 hours ago, SmougyG said:

Hello. I started playing the back in November. I have both an Elise and the Stagi Hayden. I like playing the Elise most of the time except for the rare times I find myself needing the extra range.

 

I have noticed the quality in the reed performance between the two. With the Elise I need to use considerably more force to get the reeds to sing compared to the Stagi.

 

I am looking to know what my next step will be in the future: the troubadour or the peacock. I like the size of the troubadour more and I don't mind the buttons as I am able to do a lot already with the Elise, however the peacock looks to come with better reeds based on the CC site.

 

Are there any troubadour owners that can speak on the sensitivity of the reeds when playing?

 

How far "in the future" are you thinking of this upgrade?

[SmougyG]

6 hours ago, Caroline said:

Hi Smougy,

I can't speak to the Troubadour or the Peacock, but I just received my Custom Clover from CC about two weeks ago and I am 100% satisfied.  It is a beautiful instrument and sounds great.  William and Karen were very helpful and showed great patience for all of my questions.  (I got the French polished, quilted maple and it is gorgeous!)  I had been learning on a Stagi Anglo...there is absolutely no comparison.

 

Caroline

 

Thank you for this input as you come from a Stagi back round. It makes me excited for the future.

 

 

4 hours ago, Don Taylor said:

It also comes with the better Wakker bellows as standard and a hard shell case for $2,990. 

 

A Troubadour with those desirable options will cost you $2,240 (1,750 + 395 + 95).

 

Unless the small size of the Troubadour is really, really important to you then I think the extra $750 is well worth it.

 

The idea of the smaller concertina is to have for traveling. If the instrument is sitting at home it is a no brainier as to go for the Peacock, but for something to carry around with me is the higher price tag going to scare me more should it gets damaged, lost, or stolen during my travels. If the reeds are the same quality as the Elise then I could see holding on to the Elise just because of the much cheaper price tag to travel with and then get a Peacock as my stepping stone to a W2

 

 

3 hours ago, seanc said:

I would really urge you to look at one of the Jay concertinas. Not sure what your price range is.  
 

I know you said you have been able to get away with the 37. But as you get better and your repitoire grows you are very likely to really wish you opted for more range. 
 

the way a Hayden is set up. 37 buttons is extremely limiting. It is near impossible to play anything farther from C than 2 sharps or flats. 

 

I just checked out the Jay's and that is a really nice option. Thank you for pointing this out as I can see a lot of promise for something like that in the future.

 

 

3 hours ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

 

How far "in the future" are you thinking of this upgrade?

 

Lord willing I am hoping to be ready to put in an order by early next year.

[DaveRo]

@SmougyGWhere are you located?

 

It's a good idea to put your location in your profile, btw, especially for questions like this. Somebody nearby might have one and be prepared to let you try it.

 

I have a Peacock.

 

Anybody in Kent have one of those 74-button Jay Haydens?

[John Wild]

4 hours ago, DaveRo said:

Anybody in Kent have one of those 74-button Jay Haydens?

I believe that is a new model, so the answer is likely to either "no" or "very few".

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

7 hours ago, SmougyG said:

Lord willing I am hoping to be ready to put in an order by early next year.

Then you may want to hold your horses just yet, as there might be another option available then. I’m currently in the process of designing a small, about Troubadour sized, square 3D printed, 46-50b box with a price tag likely between a Stagi and Troubadour. Details yet to come, but the first pre-production prototype should be ready around May-June.

[Don Taylor]

12 hours ago, seanc said:

I would really urge you to look at one of the Jay concertinas.

I contacted Edward Jay a couple of months ago about making me a small 46 button Hayden. 

 

He was not interested, he only seemed to want to make his large 74(!!!) button Hayden.

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

13 minutes ago, Don Taylor said:

I contacted Edward Jay a couple of months ago about making me a small 46 button Hayden. 

 

He was not interested, he only seemed to want to make his large 74(!!!) button Hayden.

 

Ed is an accordionist first, concertina builder second, and he simply didn't want any compromise when it came to musical utility of his Hayden. 74b Hayden is still many times lighter than even a small accordion and this number, 74, is only a result of his largest printer bed size being a hard limit. If he had a bigger one, he would make his Hayden the size of a Bandoneon. My box has 66 buttons and I would still add like 8 more, at least. Truth be told, 46b standard is a bare minimum when it comes to utility, with everything with less buttons being a teaser to the system at most. I'm designing a 46b box now, and it's just too much compromise. It's ok for traditional genres, but once you step out you momentarily run into range limitations. I'll be most likely including the upgrade option for 4 more buttons because of this. Beaumont (RIP) was way better "standard" than 46b is, and this is exactly why it was way more popular option than Peacock, even with so much higher price. 

[SmougyG]

1 hour ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

Then you may want to hold your horses just yet, as there might be another option available then. I’m currently in the process of designing a small, about Troubadour sized, square 3D printed, 46-50b box with a price tag likely between a Stagi and Troubadour. Details yet to come, but the first pre-production prototype should be ready around May-June.

 

 

This is really exciting to read. I love the idea of a 3D printed instrument just for more available production sake and durability. I will be looking forward to seeing what you produce!

[Don Taylor]

55 minutes ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

I'm designing a 46b box now, and it's just too much compromise. It's ok for traditional genres

But that is all that most folks want to play on a concertina! 

 

If you want a button instrument with reeds that is much larger and more capable than a concertina then maybe a CBA would make more sense.  But then the compromise is size and weight. 

 

The charm, for me, in the concertina has always been its small size - maybe that is not rational, but I doubt that I am alone in that feeling.  

[seanc]

11 minutes ago, Don Taylor said:

But that is all that most folks want to play on a concertina! 

 

If you want a button instrument with reeds that is much larger and more capable than a concertina then maybe a CBA would make more sense.  But then the compromise is size and weight. 

 

The charm, for me, in the concertina has always been its small size - maybe that is not rational, but I doubt that I am alone in that feeling.  

There are a lot of 50+ button Crannes and Maccans out there.

 

But specific to the Hayden system.. At least IMO.. a 37b (in the range something like an Elise is in) is great, if you want to play in C/ F/ G but after that as you move away from C, you get really limited.

 

All concertinas run into issues as you move away from their "natural"  center.. IME.. paying in B or C# (maj) on the english or Crane tends gets wonky as the relative positions of notes get shifted. and takes more thinking about those "black: keys are now "white" keys, etc.. but at least on the systems the notes are there. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by seanc

[SmougyG]

53 minutes ago, Don Taylor said:

The charm, for me, in the concertina has always been its small size - maybe that is not rational, but I doubt that I am alone in that feeling.  

This is the main factor for me as well that drew me to the instrument. I would like something I can play in between customer calls on the road with me and when I am hiking/camping. 

 

 

43 minutes ago, seanc said:

There are a lot of 50+ button Crannes and Maccans out there.

 

But specific to the Hayden system.. At least IMO.. a 37b (in the range something like an Elise is in) is great, if you want to play in C/ F/ G but after that as you move away from C, you get really limited.

Since I solely play by myself it hasn't been too much of an issue since I transposed most of songs I play into a key that the Elise can handle.

 

 

 

I have wondered about trying other systems and was even curious if I can get the results I'm looking for out of an anglo, but I do feel very limiting compared to a duet. Cranes are an interesting alternative. Do they sit around the 6 1/4 flat to flat range?

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

1 hour ago, Don Taylor said:

But that is all that most folks want to play on a concertina! 

 

If you want a button instrument with reeds that is much larger and more capable than a concertina then maybe a CBA would make more sense.  But then the compromise is size and weight. 

 

The charm, for me, in the concertina has always been its small size - maybe that is not rational, but I doubt that I am alone in that feeling.  

There is no condescending tone in my post, just a simple truth - small Haydens can’t handle as broad number of genres as large Haydens, and large duets in general, can. I have nothing against playing traditional music and I’m very well aware, that the dominance of Anglos stems exactly from trad-centric perspective of most players and that is perfectly fine by me. Since the very begining of existence of concertinas there were small ones snd there were big ones. German Anglos quickly evolved into Bandoneons and their musical ways split. With duet concertinas I think the same might happen, once the availability and recognition of duets grow. Duets are great exactly because they fill a niche in between of smallest Anglos or Englishes and smallest button accordions. Small accordion with similar capabilites to large duet weights more than twice as much and is three times as large. Large duets may lack the portability aspect when compared to Anglos or Englishes, but when compared to accordions, they are tiny. There is also one other aspect to consider - there are only two small Free Bass accordions  on the market, everything else up to concert level instruments is Stradella. Duets are Free Bass equivalents and so are less limited than accordions, provided enough buttons. 
 

And you know best how reluctant I am to increasing the size of my 46/50b project beyond what is absolutely necessary.

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

1 hour ago, seanc said:

There are a lot of 50+ button Crannes and Maccans out there.

 

But specific to the Hayden system.. At least IMO.. a 37b (in the range something like an Elise is in) is great, if you want to play in C/ F/ G but after that as you move away from C, you get really limited.

 

All concertinas run into issues as you move away from their "natural"  center.. IME.. paying in B or C# (maj) on the english or Crane tends gets wonky as the relative positions of notes get shifted. and takes more thinking about those "black: keys are now "white" keys, etc.. but at least on the systems the notes are there. 

Elise annoingly lacks even a single G#. Many tunes that are not fully chromatic but are chromaticised could be fitted to an instrument with just a button or two more on the RH side. From my POV, Elise should have had the layout of the Troubadour and would be an ideal entry to this system.

[seanc]

5 minutes ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

Elise annoingly lacks even a single G#. Many tunes that are not fully chromatic but are chromaticised could be fitted to an instrument with just a button or two more on the RH side. From my POV, Elise should have had the layout of the Troubadour and would be an ideal entry to this system.

 

 

if a person can live with completely missing a note. Or, can adjust everything to play only in one key. I suppose a 37 is great.  but, it would drive me absolutely insane..

 

 

When I look at and consider this It all i can think of is  the Steven Wright "I bought an irregular phone"  joke..

 

"I saw a close friend of mine the other day... He said, "Steven, why haven't you called me?" I said, "I can't call everyone I want. My new phone has no five on it." He said, "How long have you had it?" I said, "I don't know . . . My calendar has no sevens on it."