Anyone Else Worried?

[Hilary]

There really is hope. After posting last night, I went into the spare room and noticed my son's fiddle was missing! Much texting and phoning later I discovered that he had taken it back with him after his last visit home. He's been spending all his free time in clubs around the country, listening to really loud, and to my ears, strange stuff and then, on reaching 22, goes to his local and plays fiddle like a demon!

When he was learning, he would never play anywhere where I or my friends might hear him so perhaps it is just parent/offspring problems after all

[stuart estell]

I have to admit, I am very bothered by the violence of today's 'counterpop music' (hey, I just made that up.... ) -- as Mark says....

...Goth (kids all dress in black and listen to music with lyrics that make my blood run cold)...

-- and it seems that it's never just a 20-minute set in a series of 'special music;' it's more like a societal addiction to poison and destruction. (I can understand the appeal in the mystery of things that are romantically spooky/gothic/ardent...etc...that's not the same thing.)

 

Maybe it's ego-gone-wild, I don't know! I hope the next generation will be free of that (and not due to being absent from earth because of global destruction and extinction).

 

First off, I think we should be grateful that they like any music at all, to be honest. The more worrying trend to my mind is the fact that kids often now prefer to spend their money on computer games instead of records. But is that just because they can download music for free if they know where to go?

 

However, from my point of view (that of a mildly-jaded 29 year old who spent most of his formative years listening to and playing punk and punk-derived music on guitar - as well as a lot of classical music on piano), I certainly don't hear the "violence" you mention, Wendy. In fact I find most current gothy/industrial/metal stuff pretty tame!

 

Early 21st-century Goth music has little of the humour (or indeed of the edge) that it had in the early-mid 80s; sadly the record companies twigged that it's very easy indeed to sell misery to teenagers - and in common with most other mainstream genres (and it is mainstream, no matter how many goth kids try and tell you they're different - well, they're so "different" there are hundreds of thousands of 'em buying the records!) it's been diluted by commerce.

 

On July the 16th I'm off to see one of my favourite bands - Napalm Death. In the late 80s they created a new sub-genre of Metal called Grindcore. I always assumed it was noise, although exhilarating noise, as to the untrained ear it sounds like all instruments being played as fast and loud as possible with some blood-curdling screaming over the top. Luckily - or not, as it ruined our rehearsal - my old band was rehearsing at a studio in Birmingham, on a day that Napalm Death were at home. They were in the studio the floor below. There came forth blasts of noise that lasted about 20 seconds apiece that made it impossible for us to concentrate Then they started _working_ on these blasts of noise. The amount of detail buried in these little blasts of noise was astonishing - and the drumming, in particular, was like nothing else I've ever heard. I was so impressed that I went and bought one of their records to study what they were doing a bit more closely.

 

My point about them, I suppose, is twofold: the funniest thing about Napalm Death is that they play up to the "horror" elements of extreme metal, with depictions of corpses etc. on their record sleeves, but when you read their lyrics (and you have to read them from the inlay, as they're aurally unintelligible!) they're actually very socially and politically aware, and tend to be about the evils of multinational corporations and the like! Secondly, they're an extremely talented and creative bunch of musicians, but, just like Stravinsky in 1913, it might sound exceptionally aggressive, but really all they're doing is playing in a different musical language to everyone else. And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

(Hmmmm, I haven't yet wired a concertina up to a rack of guitar effects pedals... I bet that would be deafening because of the frequencies involved... must give it a go )

 

Anyway, I'm in danger of making no coherent point here whatsoever, so to come full circle to the original point of the thread, I don't think we need worry about the future of music as a whole - I go to plenty of gigs in and around Birmingham and attendance by the 15-25 age group is very healthy indeed, though I'll admit it does depend on the genre of the band performing. Certain forms of music may come and go, but that's natural and it's always happened. It feels bad if it's a form of music that's close to your heart, but it'll come back again, one day.

Edited June 30, 2005 by stuart estell

[Mark Evans]

Stuart, a spirited and valid defense of Goth culture music. In re-reading my post I realize I painted all Goth related genre with a broad brush. Forgive me.

 

Certainly most of what my son Claude listens to, Black Sabbath et al is nothing to make my blood run cold. Even Slipknot is relatively mild, although a bit of an onslaught with a texture that can overwhelm me....however drums as a lead instrument was a very interesting experience.

 

The "new" groups have my blood running cold...like Insane Clown Posse. My boy was so proud of his latest CD and I say, "well, give the old man a listen" and into the care stereo it goes. The lyrics about death and dismemberment literally made it difficult for me to breathe. I had to ask him to turn it off.

 

I have not felt like that since the summer of '02 when the kids and I while in San Gimignano visited the Torture Museum (against my better judgement). I was sickened not only by what I saw and had to confront about human behavior, but by some of the people standing next to me with grins on their faces. The children were very concerned for me as I fled the place, eventually weeping in the middle of the street. Dear Claude thinks I take the lyrics and the torture museum way too seriously.

 

Yes, Stravinsky's Rite of Spring provoked a similar reaction as you state. It was violent for the time and certainly discordant for their ears. A revolution for sure. But this I encountered was blood and body parts spattering the walls and too much for me.

 

I can't keep my children in my antique cottage and English garden with pond. That's my reality. They will go out beyond my gate and find themselves as I did. It just makes me worry....and escape into playing my concertina all the more.

 

Edit: You should look into one of those MIDI concertinas. The more foot pedals the better!

Edited June 30, 2005 by Mark Evans

[stuart estell]

The "new" groups have my blood running cold...like Insane Clown Posse.  My boy was so proud of his latest CD and I say, "well, give the old man a listen" and into the care stereo it goes.  The lyrics about death and dismemberment literally made it difficult for me to breathe.  I had to ask him to turn it off.

 

I have not felt like that since the summer of '02 when the kids and I while in San Gimignano visited the Torture Museum (against  my better judgement).  I was sickened not only by what I saw and had to confront about human behavior, but by some of the people standing next to me with grins on their faces... <snip>

 

Yes, Stravinsky's Rite of Spring provoked a similar reaction as you state.  It was violent for the time and certainly discordant for their ears.  A revolution for sure.  But this I encountered was blood and body parts spattering the walls and too much for me. 

 

This is what I love about Concertina.Net - I haven't had a conversation like this for ages

 

I suppose the question becomes that of where one draws the line in terms of taste - and I'd apply the same sort of logic to horror films as I would to the kind of music we're discussing. I'm a big fan of zombie movies, and the over-the-top gore that you see at the denouements of films like Day Of The Dead doesn't offend my sensibilities at all. To me, at least, the way in which it is presented is so far-fetched that it doesn't cross the line into bad taste (I'm sure plenty of people would disagree with me). To my mind, many death-metal bands like Carcass are similar; they have absurdly gory lyrics but their tongues planted firmly in their cheeks - there's an obvious element of "you don't think we really _mean_ all this stuff, do you?" to their whole approach.

 

The ones that bother me, especially in the MTV-video age we live in, are the ones that describe harming others (or themselves) with almost surgical precision. I'm not familiar with Insane Clown Posse, but I'm guessing your reaction was similar to mine on seeing the beginning of a Marilyn Manson (edit: at the risk of undermining my original point, I'd completely forgotten about this when I wrote my first post...) video in which (if I remember rightly) some chap was strapped down in restraints with various surgical implements nearby. I couldn't watch it, not even out of morbid curiosity.

 

Edit:  You should look into one of those MIDI concertinas.  The more foot pedals the better!

 

It'd be harder to get decent feedback with a MIDI concertina though

Edited June 30, 2005 by stuart estell

[ceemonster]

here's a subjective opinion that certainly is merely opinion, but might help give a clue as to the thinking of some of those who are staying away from classical and "folkie" concerts.

the original post seemed to be addressing classical concerts, so i'll weigh in on that before getting to the trad. i'm sure i'm not terribly different from many of those choosing "popular" culture these days in that i originally avoided classical music because i was so alienated by the effete, elitist, narrow-minded, provincial-though-thinking-they're-sophisticated ambience that for the last 60 or so years has permeated the classical world and is strangling its appeal in america. i "grew into" the music late, but it was punk rock that showed me that art and music can be wild, passionate and existentially indispensable. now, along with punk rock, klezmer, irish, thelonius monk, astor piazzolla and other indispensable great art, i also love debussy, stravinsky, erik satie, and more classical heroes.

 

as for folk/trad----i love world roots music, be it from sweden, roumania, louisiana or ireland, but the anglo-american "folkie" stuff makes me want to projectile vomit, and i do notice that many (not all) in america come to irish or roots music through that "folkie" window, and that many (not all) of those folks seem to be uncomfortable with the elements in so-called popular music that i might call "wild and blue." the dark, the wild, the dangerous----a shame, since that is what irish dance music originally was, and still is at its best, to take but one example. that is what all great art is, whether it's alban berg or "fear of a black planet," the mighty hip-hop album by the brilliant poets of the band Public Enemy. great art ain't "safe." it ain't "pretty" and it ain't denatured. unfortunately, many of those who seek the wild and blue in their creative lives seem to be gravitating to other art forms for the moment, not because classical or roots music doesn't offer the same creative joys, but because the culture currently permeating those scenes can be kinda offputting unless you're lucky enough to figure out some other way how great that music is.

 

and as for the terrifying possibility of popular art "winning"-----i'm with whoever it was that pointed out that there's no high or low art anymore, only good and bad!

:)

 

ceemonster

Edited June 30, 2005 by ceemonster

[stuart estell]

... the dark, the wild, the dangerous----a shame, since that is what irish dance music originally was, and still is at its best, to take but one example. that is what all great art is, whether it's alban berg or "fear of a black planet," the mighty hip-hop album by the brilliant poets of the band Public Enemy. great art ain't "safe." it ain't "pretty" and it ain't denatured.  unfortunately, many of those who seek the wild and blue in their creative lives seem to be gravitating to other art forms for the moment, not because classical or roots music doesn't offer the same creative joys, but because the culture currently permeating those scenes can be kinda offputting unless you're lucky enough to figure out some other way how great that music is.

 

I think you're probably right, on both counts: I get similar visceral thrills from hearing the Ramones playing "Blitzkrieg Bop", Beethoven's Grosse Fuge, and hearing John Kirkpatrick belting out Fain I Would.

 

It's the passion in the music that matters, regardless of genre, and if the social conventions connected with a genre get in the way of the music, then it's time to rethink those social conventions. I'm thinking particularly of English National Opera's trip to the Glastonbury Festival last year - a masterstroke, as, apparently, the crowd loved the Wagner they were presented with. I'm sure it's not the music itself that puts some people off.

 

I certainly think that the web, and digital arts generally, are maturing as a vehicle for expression, and a vehicle that's unhindered by conventions. It's the punk rock of our times. I don't know if anyone here has ever looked at the artwork on b3ta.com (caution - sometimes the material can be _very_ near the knuckle) but there's enormous talent. 25 years ago these guys would have been picking up guitars instead of graphics tablets and PCs, I'm sure.

 

As a side-comment - if Chuck D's lyrics on "Black Planet" and "Nation of Millions" aren't true folk art then nothing is. I'm amazed, I never thought I'd see Public Enemy mentioned on here

[Jim Besser]

I can't keep my children in my antique cottage and English garden with pond.  That's my reality.  They will go out beyond my gate and find themselves as I did.  It just makes me worry....and escape into playing my concertina all the more.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It is the job of kids that age to find ways to offend their elders, using whatever convenient tools are at hand -- and music is especially convenient. Well I remember the immature pleasure I took playing COuntry Joe and Fish at top volume to an uncle who supported the Viet Nam war.

 

On the broader issue, I see a mixed scene, at least in my little corner of the world.

 

Younger people are scarce at folk music venues. The Folklore Society of Greater Washington, a huge organization, is weighted heavily toward us gray hairs.

 

Younger people, paradoxically, are very visible as musicians. At our big monthly open band contra dance, probably a quarter of the musicians are now under 25 -- a big increase from a few years ago. Moreover, some of the emerging leaders of the group are in that age range; there's a real changing of the guard taking place.

 

THere are also large numbers of young contra dancers, so the future of that genre is hopeful.

[Mark Evans]

the original post seemed to be addressing classical concerts,ceemonster

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I should clarify: My efforts at the college are predominately folk, jazz, blues,ethinic music and one classical genere a semester only. I fought very hard for balance in musical representation for it used to be opera all the time

The concert series in now much heathier for it and more students walk in the door just because they are curious.

 

In addition I facilitate an international film series, an art gallery and an evening series that will include a speaker, a Shakespeare company, an oprea gala, and a dance company (this year I will also have Skip Gorman/singer, fiddler, mandolin, guitar, gut string banjo and his Wadie Pardners ). My local gigs with different music groups are all folk music.

 

I have noticed the blue hair dominance at them all. I still attend "classical concerts as well. Reading back over my first post I see it gave a one sided impression.

[Alan Day]

A lot of Folk music expressed with words and music the problems of society,culture, politics,wars,feeling of the masses, religion,etc etc.This was picked up and carried on in Punk format which the young generation related to and has now been expanded into modern rock music. Like Mark I enjoy most types of music ,but I just cannot warm to the modern scene.I like a tune I can whistle on the way to work, but I cannot find the tune nowdays.I put this down to my age and if I cannot relate to the music of youngsters why should I expect them to relate to mine.This thread would have worried me if I had not recently gone to East Germany and a little while ago to Ireland.The age group in Germany was fifty fifty young and old, what a fantastic mix.In Ireland of course the children are encouraged at an early age to go with their parents and learn the traditional music and dances of their country.There are some young concertina players as young as eight who could outplay most of us.

In South Africa Regardt de Bruin at sixteen won the playing championship of his country beating all comers.

Do not worry my friends the youngsters are on their way just give them a bit of time and encouragement and we will be swamped.

Al

[bellowbelle]

.............However, from my point of view (that of a mildly-jaded 29 year old who spent most of his formative years listening to and playing punk and punk-derived music on guitar - as well as a lot of classical music on piano), I certainly don't hear the "violence" you mention, Wendy. In fact I find most current gothy/industrial/metal stuff pretty tame!..................

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't want to actually name names of bands, because I don't have any in particular picked out, for one thing! Most of the ones mentioned in this thread, I've heard or heard of, but they're not necessarily ones that I remember making me cringe. I'm thinking mainly of various small-time local metal bands that I've heard bits of here and there, usually because I couldn't avoid hearing them, while attending something at a local high school (they supposedly have some kind of a dress-code, but don't care what your ears have to go through) or somewhere like that.

 

Usually, I couldn't decipher the screamed lyrics. But, it's just the physical reaction that this type of music gives -- makes me feel like I've been assaulted and then was expected to show my appreciation by clapping or cheering.

 

I don't watch wrestling, either!

[bellowbelle]

Bleh. I'm in my mid 20s and would attend folk or classical concerts if I could afford to - at this stage in my life I can't. I'm hardly the average, though, as a teen I was playing Grieg in my car, not Nirvana or Eminem or whatever.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You know, that's a good point!

 

I often get notices in the mail about upcoming classical concerts that I could attend for some 3-digit type of number.....they sound great, but, I usually just pull them out of the mailbox, say 'wow, looks good,' then look at the price and say, 'WOW! THERE'S NO WAY!'

 

Yay for radios...

[geoffwright]

Bliars "Cool Britain" was epitomised when they built a futuristic (it looks like an electric kettle) "National Centre for Popular Music" in Sheffield. It never took off, and became known as the "Unpopular Centre for National Music". It is currently the Students Union and is still loosing money as the students won't go in there. So much for the world-wide, money-making advertising scam known as popular (sic) music.

 

We had a ceilidh for my son's 18th birthday party, with various local musos making up the band. His 6th form friends said it was brilliant and they never knew music like that existed, when is the next one!.

It was nice to hear their reaction, apart from the fact they were from Wath-On-Dearne, which hosts a yearly folk festival to evidently deaf ears.

 

I go along with Jim that too many kids will only play amplified, electric guitars and the like because "loud is best". (Not that Jeffries players would ever subscribe to that motto)

[Mark Evans]

I go along with Jim that too many kids will only play amplified, electric guitars and the like because "loud is best". (Not that Jeffries players would ever subscribe to that motto)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That motto works for bluegrass banjo players as well.

 

My Claude, who is very musical, has searched in vain for an instrument that would hold his attention. First it was the double bass which he picked up one evening during a jam session at the house and played well (just before he decided my music in general..."sucked"). Being an indulgent dad I bought him one. He never touched it again.

 

Last summer in Ireland with my wife he got all excieted about the bodhran...yes, we now own one and it's on the wall never to be touched again.

 

Three months ago he announced that he wanted to learn the guitar. Okay, I'll get you some instruction boy and wait right here. I pull out from the back of the closet my very nice early Washburn 0018 copy with Sitka spurce top. She's one sweet sounding guitar. I invisioned one of those touching pass the torch moments. He looked at me the way only a teenage son can. "Dad, I mean electric and I have the guitar all picked out". He's taking lessons and practices in the cellar. So far so good, but it certainly is loud .

Edited July 1, 2005 by Mark Evans

[CaryK]

as for folk/trad----i love world roots music, be it from sweden, roumania, louisiana or ireland, but the anglo-american "folkie" stuff makes me want to projectile vomit, and i do notice that many (not all) in america come to irish or roots music through that "folkie" window, and that many (not all) of those folks seem to be uncomfortable with the elements in so-called popular music that i might call "wild and blue." the dark, the wild, the dangerous

 

 

ceemonster

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm sorry, I agree that great art can be wild and dangerous in the sense that it is radically different that what has gone before, but no "art" needs to descend into the realm of the obscene, profane, sado-masichistic, or just plain evil. And these are not all subjective concepts. What's the point of this even if tongue-in-cheek?