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Isel

Allowing handrail to slightly rotate in Hayden?

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Forgive me the crazy answer...... but have you ever seen or thought about a handrail in Hayden duet that could slightly rotate around a " central-located" screw?.

 

In other words, a handrail attached to the end  only by one screw in the middle location, instead by the conventional two screws placed close to both ends of the handrail.

The purpose: to obtain some advantage in reaching the outer buttons with the pinkies if needed; also letting a no-slanted handrail the possibility to adopt a somewhat slant-like configuration for some chording.

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I have found a somewhat related idea has been considered before. See this post, that includes a more ellaborated proposal, and pictures. here

 

In other hand, after reading the interesting explanations of mister inventor in the " Wicki-Envi " post , I do think a handrail having the option to free rotate could solve, at least,  the problem of consecutively or simultaneously playing stacked buttons (as octaves in hayden duets).

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This is an intriguing idea but unfortunately both the Morse Beaumont and, I think, the Wheatstone Haydens have an air button embedded in the handrail!

 

I do not understand why they did this, the mechanism is complex and makes it tricky to remove and reinstall the right hand end and yet does not make it easier to operate the air button.  It makes it well nigh impossible to modify or experiment with alternative handrail ergonomics.

Edited by Don Taylor

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Hi Isel, do you mean a handrail that can be loosened (with a screwdriver), rotated to a different angle, and then tightened to lock it in the new position for playing? Or one that has a loose central pivot so it can rotate freely while playing? If the latter I wonder if it might make playing more difficult because the instrument would be less stable?

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3 hours ago, alex_holden said:

one that has a loose central pivot so it can rotate freely 

Exactly!.

I am also affraid a completely loose pivot would result in a "wild horse "....The tricky point would be having the option of tightening the " pivot" to preserve certain stability.

 

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Posted (edited)

I think it would be tricky to implement in a strong reliable way, without adding a significant amount of weight. I wonder if a simpler alternative might be to do something different with the hand strap attachments to allow it to move more? Something like with the Müller system where the strap can rotate on the attachment point, allowing the hand more freedom of movement?

Edited by alex_holden

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Little John, I think, has made the observation that the contact and thus the leverage through the hand rest is mostly if not all at the base of the pinky.  This may vary with your style of play but is true for me.  Having moved my hand strap behind the base of my thumb ( left hand only for now) I find the enhanced and desirable (for me) freedom of movement stifled by the hand rest.  I propose replacing it with a sort of bollard/saddle at the leverage point.  Bring on the wild horses!

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16 minutes ago, alex_holden said:

Hi Wunks, I’m not sure I follow your proposal. Any chance of a sketch?

Alex,  I'm not very good with this little Chrome Book but I can elaborate:

I moved the anchor point of the left hand strap ( partly due to a sore thumb joint, partly to make it easier to hit the F# thumb key on Jeff Duet).  I anchored to the adjacent end bolt and turned the end under.  I think the pic. shows it well enough.  It's a huge improvement in range of movement and comfort but the hand rest is now an encumbrance.  It should be easy to remove it (although the single bolt holding each end is peened over like a rivet)  and experiment with a rest for the pinky joint.  None of this would involve altering the Instrument in non-reversible fashon, although the end bolt anchor might need strengthening if it's to be permanent.  I don't mean to hijack the thread but this seems to me relevant to the swivel idea.IMG_20191001_072801.thumb.jpg.5eddbb7cb3a258f9124865bc97303d5d.jpg

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I have something similar to ideas mentioned above in mind for my yet-to-be-finished 66 button Hayden. My idea is to have a thumb strap (I already use one on my Elise), a wide pinky „saddle” instead of handrail and I also wanted to experiment with a different approach to handstraps - make it a set of rigid but deflectable slides that do not restrain hand movement about thumb pivot point while giving the same controll as a tight strap. This way changing the hand orientation to flat or sharp keys should not affect bellows control or stability while playing.

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6 hours ago, wunks said:

Alex,  I'm not very good with this little Chrome Book but I can elaborate:

I moved the anchor point of the left hand strap ( partly due to a sore thumb joint, partly to make it easier to hit the F# thumb key on Jeff Duet).  I anchored to the adjacent end bolt and turned the end under.  I think the pic. shows it well enough.  It's a huge improvement in range of movement and comfort but the hand rest is now an encumbrance.  It should be easy to remove it (although the single bolt holding each end is peened over like a rivet)  and experiment with a rest for the pinky joint.  None of this would involve altering the Instrument in non-reversible fashon, although the end bolt anchor might need strengthening if it's to be permanent.  I don't mean to hijack the thread but this seems to me relevant to the swivel idea.

 

OK, I think I see what you mean. If you did that to both ends, presumably it would be impossible to play standing up because you need to rest one end on a leg to prevent the instrument tilting forwards?

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Posted (edited)

This little $8 barn sale item does quite nicely.  Right foot on the floor, left on the hike.  "Oh the lookout on the topmast stood!"  nice and lofty, right up there with the youngsters......😃  Actually I don't notice much difference either way and a rim on the inside of the proposed "saddle"  might provide more support and be less tiring than the strap under the thumb arrangement.IMG_20191001_142906.thumb.jpg.75311af5e3e8ff9dea46e469a9adde30.jpg 

Edited by wunks
enlightenment as a result of actual usage

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Thank you Don, Alex, Erik and Lucas!.

 

I see your points. As far as I understand, the change in the anchor Erik made remembers to me  somewhat the Müller arrangement ( isn't Alex? ).

I also contact the handrail with the base of the pinkie, but with my thumb as well.

By experimenting with my keyboard prototype, I notice the " rotation" of the rail I commented above could be imposed by the " L-shape" of the rail in the end where the thumb finger rests, because this "L" blocks the movement of the hand.

 I think I wouldn't be comfortable with a thumb strap, instead I consider my way could be to allow some more freedom of the hand by combining Alex's suggestion with a proper adjust of the strap pressure, besides  perhaps avoiding the L- shape of the hand rail.

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3 minutes ago, Isel said:

I see your points. As far as I understand, the change in the anchor Erik made remembers to me  somewhat the Müller arrangement ( isn't Alex? ).

 

It's a little different because with the Müller system the end of the strap that can swivel is on the pinky side, and the thumb end is more conventionally clamped:

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Isel said:

By experimenting with my keyboard prototype, I notice the " rotation" of the rail I commented above could be imposed by the " L-shape" of the rail in the end where the thumb finger rests, because this "L" blocks the movement of the hand.

 I think I wouldn't be comfortable with a thumb strap, instead I consider my way could be to allow some more freedom of the hand by combining Alex's suggestion with a proper adjust of the strap pressure, besides  perhaps avoiding the L- shape of the hand rail.

 

Where would the thumb end of the strap be clamped to? The hand rail? Perhaps the strap could be free pivoting on that end too, but we do need to also have a way to adjust the length of the strap.

 

Would it help if the rail is slightly banana-shaped, curving closer to the keyboard at the pinky end?

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^_^... so several changes in the rail of my prototype are needed,  to check these ideas

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Half of a drawer pull makes a reasonable approximation.  It would need to be ergonomically shaped, probably custom.  The palm side ridge seems a bit too high.  It could be made to swivel.

IMG_20191002_153718.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Excusez moi Erik ...I am affraid I don't well understand this example you show :(

But ...take care! The wild horse is coming!!:)

The first new rail prototype I made following some of the ideas exposed above resulted very satisfactory to my taste!!.

It Includes:

the thumb end of the strap would be clamped to the side frame, more or less in the end bolt area (as Erik use in his duet )

- A swiving clamp in the pinkie end of the strap.

- A slope-shape (sorry... I don't know how to name it...  ) hand rail. I strongly  removed the upper portion in the " L " area of the thumb end, to create a smooth slope that allows the hand to rotate.

 

This way, I found quite a big improvement on freedom for my hand without -apparently- compromising bellows control. This way I can  reach together two stacked buttons from a no- slanted arrangement 

20191002_211140.jpg

Edited by Isel

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Posted (edited)

In first place is the standard bar.

 

Next picture shows the strap as well

 

20191003_071406.jpg

Edited by Isel

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