Green Dye In Victorian Concertina Bellows

[SteveS]

I have been wondering about the green dye used in the bellows of Victorian concertinas.

 

Here's an extract from Wikipedia:

 

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Scheele's Green, also called Schloss Green, is chemically a cupric hydrogen arsenite (also called copper arsenite or acidic copper arsenite), CuHAsO₃. It is chemically related to Paris Green. It is a yellowish-green pigment and in the past it was used in some paints, but has since fallen out of use because of its toxicity and the instability of its colour in the presence of sulphides and various chemical pollutants.

 

Scheele's Green was used as a color for paper, e.g., for wallpapers and paper hangings, and in paints, wax candles, and even on some children's toys.^[3] It was also used to dye cotton and linen. Scheele's Green is more brilliant and durable than the then-used copper carbonate pigments. However, because of its copper content it tends to fade and blacken when exposed to sulfides, whether in the form of atmospheric hydrogen sulfide or in pigment mixtures based on or containing sulfur.

 

Emerald green, also known as Paris Green, was developed later in attempt to improve Scheele's Green. It had the same tendency to blacken, but was more durable. By the end of 19th century, both greens were made obsolete by cobalt green, also known as zinc green, which is far less toxic.

 

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What do we know about the green used in mid-Victorian concertina bellows?

Might it be toxic?

 

 

 

[Mikefule]

Well I for one will never lick my concertina bellows again!

[SteveS]

Hmm - licking concertina bellows - a subject for the concertina fetish thread....

 

The issue of toxic substances used in the past in the construction of concertinas is a concern especially to repairiers - cutting and sanding can release tiny airborne particles, which can be be ingested.

 

Also is there any risk to the player when handling a concertina then ingesting something using the hands, without washing them first?

 

There are cases of people being made ill by the fumes from the arsenic used in wallpaper.

[Geoff Wooff]

Some people have been described as playing in a "chewy" fashion but masticating one's bellows is perhaps not what is meant by it.

 

I can imagine that working on one small Bellows is not going to produce the volume of toxicity that could be ingested by stripping old wallpaper.

 

One process that I use in my work involves boiling Lead and pouring it into tubes to aid in bending them. I usually wait for some reasonable weather so as to cook the lead outdoors on a camp stove. That way I hope I am not breathing in anything bad.

 

Sweeping out dust and soot from a 100 year old concertina is a mask job too.

[Dana Johnson]

Alternatives to lead are pitch, and soapy ice. There are probably other low melting point alloys that work too, without Lead's fumes and toxicity.

[Geoff Wooff]

Alternatives to lead are pitch, and soapy ice. There are probably other low melting point alloys that work too, without Lead's fumes and toxicity.

Hmmm, I have not tried either of those Dana. Many years ago I used "Wood's Metal", a bismuth alloy that melts at 70°C, it is a little difficult to use as it needs to be heated under water to stop rapid oxidation.Eventually it did oxidize somehow.

 

Another thing I tried quite recently was a plastic material called 'Resin WS8' again this melts at 70°C under water. Very clean to use but difficult to get the tubes full and remove all air bubbles.

 

Certain natural occuring resins can work well too, apparently.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Geoff Wooff

[adrian brown]

 

Alternatives to lead are pitch, and soapy ice. There are probably other low melting point alloys that work too, without Lead's fumes and toxicity.

Hmmm, I have not tried either of those Dana. Many years ago I used "Wood's Metal", a bismuth alloy that melts at 70°C, it is a little difficult to use as it needs to be heated under water to stop rapid oxidation.Eventually it did oxidize somehow.

 

Another thing I tried quite recently was a plastic material called 'Resin WS8' again this melts at 70°C under water. Very clean to use but difficult to get the tubes full and remove all air bubbles.

 

Certain natural occuring resins can work well too, apparently.

 

 

After years of using lead, (and Wood's metal in the 1980's) and once surviving a small workshop explosion when an air bubble formed under the molten and half molten globules, I discovered sand last year and won't ever be using anything else again (the sand is the fine sand, pet shops provide for bird cages). It requires no heating, only needs wooden plugs to seal the tube and pours out as easily as it goes in. My maximum tube diameter is 15mm, with a bend radius of 35mm - not sure how that compares with yours Geoff?

 

Adrian

Edited August 24, 2015 by aybee

[linrose]

If you start growing huge man-boobs I'll never touch a green concertina again.

[Geoff Wooff]

[quote name="aybee" post="171

 

After years of using lead, (and Wood's metal in the 1980's) and once surviving a small workshop explosion when an air bubble formed under the molten and half molten globules, I discovered sand last year and won't ever be using anything else again (the sand is the fine sand, pet shops provide for bird cages). It requires no heating, only needs wooden plugs to seal the tube and pours out as easily as it goes in. My maximum tube diameter is 15mm, with a bend radius of 35mm - not sure how that compares with yours Geoff?

 

Thanks for this Adrian,

 

the very first thing I ever tried for my tube bending was in fact Sand. Perhaps I did not get the right type or persist past the point where I was having some trouble getting a tube to bend so I thought, stupidly, to add a wee bit of Heat to ease things. Of course the trapped gasses in my , perhaps not so clean, sand expanded rapidly and shot the metal plug out of one end of the tube.... shot being operative as shown by a nice clean hole through the galvanised iron wall of the garage.

 

Also interesting that the company who developed the 'Resin WS8' had been asked by people like Rolls Royce to find an alternative to anything they had tried so far.

My tube diameters range from 7.5 to 11mm OD with an inside bend radius of 13mm. As the next set of bends will be in hand rolled Sterling Silver I'll try a couple of experiments with your bird cage sand on something not so precious.

 

Sorry for the thread drift... I do like Green Bellows and sometimes wish the one I have was more of a Victorian Period Colour but then I might need to keep my Fans from kissing it!

Edited August 25, 2015 by Geoff Wooff

[Dana Johnson]

Pitch, soapy ice and low melting point alloys like Cerro-Safe are in common usage in the brass instrument industry. Pitch is nice because it is relatively deformable compared to metals. The "Cerro" brand alloys are a family with different characteristics from fine proofing alloys to re useable mold pattern alloys. Some might be more ductile than others. I know what you mean about oxidization, the stuff I used wasn't bad, but I'd be inclined to use a bit of oil instead of water to keep the air off it. You need to dip your tube in oil to keep it from sticking anyway, so it kind of goes together .

From what I found reading about the Victorian leather dye, it seems if it was old and green, it was probably an Arsenic dye. Considering it's prevalence until only a dozen years ago in new pressure treated lumber for decks, sills, playground equipment and such, bellows are probably one of the safest places they used it! Most of that era green leather I've seen has been nearly black. I thought it was the color it was supposed to be, and didn't realize it was due to sulfur exposure.